Chris
Well-Known Member
That's how I do it too.
.309 in a M94 Win 30-30
- Thread starter KHornet
- Start date
That's how I do it too.
fiver
Well-Known Member
I just pinch the skin at the bottom of the breast then pull the skin up one side of the breast.
break both wing bones.
and pull the breast out.
if I want the legs they are right there exposed and all I have to do is break the leg bone at the bottom and fold them away from the back.
no knife work involved until I get ready to cook them.
break both wing bones.
and pull the breast out.
if I want the legs they are right there exposed and all I have to do is break the leg bone at the bottom and fold them away from the back.
no knife work involved until I get ready to cook them.
KHornet
Well-Known Member
Chris, I have no idea, maybe going up in vol as Freebullet suggests may
blow the accuracy out of wac. The RDog bullet has a lot of bearing surface, and
my 94 has conventional rifling, unlike the micro groove of the Marlin. If
when going up in vol blows the accuracy, I may just have to (for the first
time ever) slug the bbl to see what the actual dia is. I shot the rifle this
afternoon with some loads that I had loaded a few years back with .311 dia.
the 169PB Ranch dog, over 9 gr of Tight Group and the best I could do at
50 yds for 10 rds was 2.875". The other load was 150 gr Lee GC, over 16.5 gr
of 2400, for 10 rds, was 3", although 7 of the 10 went into 1.5. This was off
the bench, Williams receiver sight, on a super shooting day.
{ai;
blow the accuracy out of wac. The RDog bullet has a lot of bearing surface, and
my 94 has conventional rifling, unlike the micro groove of the Marlin. If
when going up in vol blows the accuracy, I may just have to (for the first
time ever) slug the bbl to see what the actual dia is. I shot the rifle this
afternoon with some loads that I had loaded a few years back with .311 dia.
the 169PB Ranch dog, over 9 gr of Tight Group and the best I could do at
50 yds for 10 rds was 2.875". The other load was 150 gr Lee GC, over 16.5 gr
of 2400, for 10 rds, was 3", although 7 of the 10 went into 1.5. This was off
the bench, Williams receiver sight, on a super shooting day.
{ai;
fiver
Well-Known Member
if your gonna try for speed just back off the jacketed loads.
this gives you a couple of advantages.
but mainly gas volume and low pressure, both are good things if your trying to break 2-K
the 30-30 is easily capable of running cast right up along side jacketed both in accuracy and velocity.
this gives you a couple of advantages.
but mainly gas volume and low pressure, both are good things if your trying to break 2-K
the 30-30 is easily capable of running cast right up along side jacketed both in accuracy and velocity.
JWFilips
Well-Known Member
OK I was going to write this out in advance of posting to be sure I was getting my point across however I can't find all that time so I'm writing this off the cuff!
Please keep in mind I only shoot rifles at low loads at 50 yard on average!
In most all my rifles I have found "that fatter the better" but I understand the implications you speak of!. If I were to take an over size Plain base bullet and nose first size it ,I will "pull a skirt" which is a NO NO for plain base shooting! HOWEVER if I had a Clean sized .311 cast PB bullet that was too big for the rifle I no doubt "pull a skirt" upon firing it! Is this not correct????
Shooting light loads ( max 1200 fps) I have not seen this to be bad on targets ( over sized PB bullets) ! It this just something that becomes more critical as we bring velocities up to 2000 fps ???
Or does it actually manifest itself at all velocities?
Thanks in advance
Jim
fiver
Well-Known Member
it does and it doesn't.
your forgetting muzzle pressure.
8 grs of powder don't have any.[not enough to speak of anyway]
the other part is do you have enough places for the displaced metal to go.
you might be 2-3 thou oversized but if most of the extra is hidden before you disrupt that little bit at the base so your not really distorting anything but a very minimal amount from the bottom drive band.
now think about the gas check and that space right above it.
that little bit takes up that fin and the check is now your new square base to take the pop at the muzzle.
the gas check increases pressures in many loads because it,,, well,, it stops the gas.
but many times the gas check bullets are more accurate.
IMO it's because of the hidden displaced alloy as much as anything else [except possibly the square base]
that allows the extra speed.
your forgetting muzzle pressure.
8 grs of powder don't have any.[not enough to speak of anyway]
the other part is do you have enough places for the displaced metal to go.
you might be 2-3 thou oversized but if most of the extra is hidden before you disrupt that little bit at the base so your not really distorting anything but a very minimal amount from the bottom drive band.
now think about the gas check and that space right above it.
that little bit takes up that fin and the check is now your new square base to take the pop at the muzzle.
the gas check increases pressures in many loads because it,,, well,, it stops the gas.
but many times the gas check bullets are more accurate.
IMO it's because of the hidden displaced alloy as much as anything else [except possibly the square base]
that allows the extra speed.
Ian
Notorious member
Agreed, the gas check does what it does for increased accuracy at higher speed/pressure because it's a harder material and preserves some form of "uniform" base shape, even though the base corner is more square, has trailing edge fins, and in the extreme is cupped after it goes through the barrel. Increased muzzle pressure with higher velocity has more effect on uneven base edges. The big radius that most gas checks have on the base allows for a lot of squinch before it becomes sharp, and I think that's a key feature.
And then there's the gas thing. At a certain point when increasing launch pressure, the base will begin to get gnaw marks from the gas. If the bullet is oversized for the groove, sometimes these get filled in and ironed out after the base squeezes through the throat taper, sometimes not. Look at the fired bullet with the nose blown off below, look carefully at the base band and see the gas cutting. This is from the bullet being too soft for the neck expanding die used and the base band getting squished when seated. Since the design is gas checked without a check, there's too much meat in it's arse for the particular combination of alloy, load, and launch dynamics to slug it up, so gas pressure just equalized in the bottom lube groove and the base band never cleaned up. Some of these would hit the target fully sideways at 25 yards. A gas check would have cured both the tight case neck and gas leakage issues, but I'm cheap and it was easier just to reduce the neck tension to correct the problem. BTW these were shot at about 1K fps with a 30K psi load of Longshot.
And then there's the gas thing. At a certain point when increasing launch pressure, the base will begin to get gnaw marks from the gas. If the bullet is oversized for the groove, sometimes these get filled in and ironed out after the base squeezes through the throat taper, sometimes not. Look at the fired bullet with the nose blown off below, look carefully at the base band and see the gas cutting. This is from the bullet being too soft for the neck expanding die used and the base band getting squished when seated. Since the design is gas checked without a check, there's too much meat in it's arse for the particular combination of alloy, load, and launch dynamics to slug it up, so gas pressure just equalized in the bottom lube groove and the base band never cleaned up. Some of these would hit the target fully sideways at 25 yards. A gas check would have cured both the tight case neck and gas leakage issues, but I'm cheap and it was easier just to reduce the neck tension to correct the problem. BTW these were shot at about 1K fps with a 30K psi load of Longshot.
IMHO Fiver & Ian pretty much nailed it. My Marlin has a barrel that is tight at both ends and doesn't do real well with undersized. My BO does very well. It's a custom ( 1:10 AR is not off the shelf) that does 2100 fps 145gr plain base. Just over 1" circle @ 100 yds, sized 3085 with my calipers (yea, I know, not a mic). Never slugged it but assume it is 'spec'. I thought it was non-square base causing the circle but now I think it is the port cutting a nick from the base - gas key was almost plugged with junk (still worked fine). Result same as 40sw with purposely nicked bases. Alloy used is from AC isocore (WW) to an equal of SuperHard. Same results. My recent testing with soft alloy in the Marlin shows that lube makes a big difference also. Base band erosion causes (BLL) lube 'blow-off' and galling of the alloy vs just moving/swaging it. Coating solves that problem. The marlin does very well with GC hard oversized alloy and jacketed, I'm getting decent results with soft GC alloy but doing more experiments. Soft PB just doesn't work unless PC coated.
Did I mention that I really like the hornady Sp (3031) in the BO? 150gr that cuts my groups in half and better BC. I know, 308W style decent for deer but @ 2k fps should still expand. 155 Amax has a BT so not enough room for powder.
Did I mention that I really like the hornady Sp (3031) in the BO? 150gr that cuts my groups in half and better BC. I know, 308W style decent for deer but @ 2k fps should still expand. 155 Amax has a BT so not enough room for powder.
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Ian
Notorious member
Popper, I've played withe BLL and PB soft bullets in my Marlin too, and had issues. If I get the bullet seated right up into the throat, and use a little Dacron wad, they work fine with BLL. If I don't use the Dacron, they pattern rather than group. If they're not contacting the throat when chambered, I get big lumpy lead fouling for the first 3/4" of the bore. If I PC them, they shoot ok, but not great due to wild SD with the light powder charges. If I use regular lube in the grooves, no BLL, seat them to engage the throat when chambered, they shoot under an inch at 50 yards without any leading or further detailed load tweaking, and there's lots left to tweak. Now that I have my 50-yard berm finished I'm going to do a little experiment to compare seating depth and BLL vs standard lube. The plan is to shoot three groups of ten, with the known good load in the middle and the deeper-seated load that leads the throat last, and recover the bullets from each batch in crumb rubber to see if the gas cutting and base band damage relates to the group sizes.
Wish I had a place to recover them. Your test will be interesting. Haven't tried the dacron with BLL but did try hitek on the bases, BLL coated. I have noted (just for comment) that dacron leaves fiberous stuff in my US cleaner. Guess it doesn't all go out the muzzle. big lumpy lead fouling for the first 3/4" of the bore Yup, from galling. Notice it in the sizer too - lube gives a nice smooth surface, else surface appears 'torn'.
just have to post this.
just have to post this.
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fiver
Well-Known Member
hummingbirds are pretty tasty too, so are pileated wood peckers.
Ian you probably don't have to go through all that work.
I would bet a little batch of 45/45 lube and one buffered with wax would show much of what you want to see.
if you wanted to push things even further a mix of cooked off JPW and just B-wax [3-1] would also show you something about protecting the bullet from the barrel.
Ian you probably don't have to go through all that work.
I would bet a little batch of 45/45 lube and one buffered with wax would show much of what you want to see.
if you wanted to push things even further a mix of cooked off JPW and just B-wax [3-1] would also show you something about protecting the bullet from the barrel.
Had to 'slug' my BO last week. Got one stuck real good - my version of the RD PB. Seated just a tad too deep. Sized to 3085, bore is 0.300 and groove is 0.308. PC coated. So I'm just over groove that I push to 2100 with accuracy. Hopefully the piggys and dove will cooperate this week - for 'soft alloy' tests..
oscarflytyer
Well-Known Member
ok... now 2x .309 sizers in the house. (one can be reamed out to .310...). First non-Marlin/94 to size for. But also 308 and 30-06 - so sure $ well spent!
Ian
Notorious member
Two of my BOs have .3095" throats and as ARs won't chamber anything reliably if it has any part over .3093" sticking out of the case. The PC doesn't need to be normal cast size to shoot well, it's slick enough to tolerate some jump, rattle, and hum in the throats without leading and still find center without getting one side of the bullet wiped off and doesn't generally gas cut during the jump nor need the extra girth for good bore obturation. Most of the time I end up sizing PC bullets about halfway between throat entrance diameter and groove dimension for best results.
KHornet
Well-Known Member
Shot the 94Win today with .309 and .310. 50 yds with Ranch Dog, GC's
over 27.5 gr Rx7;. Smallest 5 shot group with .309 was 1.25, largest was 2.2",
with 4 of the 5 going into 1.25.
Williams Receiver sight with fairly large hoodedbead.The best I could do with .310 311467, over 27.5 gr Rx7 was 2.125, and311291HP, .310, 10 rounds into 3.150", and with 7 of the 10 going into 2.250.
It definitely appears that my 94 in 30-30, shoots much better, group wise with
.309. Believe Rx7 is an excellent powder for loads in the 2000+ range.
Paul
over 27.5 gr Rx7;. Smallest 5 shot group with .309 was 1.25, largest was 2.2",
with 4 of the 5 going into 1.25.
Williams Receiver sight with fairly large hoodedbead.The best I could do with .310 311467, over 27.5 gr Rx7 was 2.125, and311291HP, .310, 10 rounds into 3.150", and with 7 of the 10 going into 2.250.
It definitely appears that my 94 in 30-30, shoots much better, group wise with
.309. Believe Rx7 is an excellent powder for loads in the 2000+ range.
Paul
JWFilips
Well-Known Member
Paul,
While I usually don't shoot that fast of bullet you got me thinking to give it a try.
I have a question regarding size: because the higher pressure load behind the .309 which has to produce more obturation; is it safe to assume that if that same size bullet was fired at a lower velocity it would have less obturation and may not shoot as well?
The reason I'm thinking this is I have almost always found I need a fatter bullet in my rifles that I shoot at 1100-1200 fps
While I usually don't shoot that fast of bullet you got me thinking to give it a try.
I have a question regarding size: because the higher pressure load behind the .309 which has to produce more obturation; is it safe to assume that if that same size bullet was fired at a lower velocity it would have less obturation and may not shoot as well?
The reason I'm thinking this is I have almost always found I need a fatter bullet in my rifles that I shoot at 1100-1200 fps