38 Special, 50 yard accuracy

[Mainiac]

I also know ken waters did a real indept test with wadcutters,in his pet loads series.i haven't read it in years,and i think it was based on 25 yards,but it was intresting reading,,look for it.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I have shot Bullseye for almost fourt years about thirty of that three gun outdoors. Shooting both H&G 50 & Ideal 358395's over bullseye. Instability was past 65/70 yards. (slow was 50yards) I shot a borrowed Colt 38 spl for a while but had to use 358063 bullets. Never any instability @ 25 yards but 50 you could sometimes seeit. Thing is most didnt shoot well enough to call it or see it for what it was. Unless the holes showed it.

CW

 

[CZ93X62]

Chargar summed up the matter succinctly above.

I have never been a huge user of wadcutter-form bullets, and similar things can be said for old-school RN forms as well. My mentors and I were steeped deeply in the semi-wadcutter/Keith-pattern cult, and despite several attempts at de-programming and other therapies I remain an acolyte of St. Elmer.

The tallest barrier to revolver accuracy for me has always been ME. Humans were not designed to be efficient artillery carriages, and my own shortcomings bear this out succinctly. On the core subject of this thread--I have never fired target-grade 38 Special RN loads. I have run a few thousand match wadcutter factory loads through known accurate 38 revolvers, and nothing I reload can best their accuracy. I get close with swaged HBWCs, but not quite. Cast WCs (Lymans #313492 and #358432) can't quite best handloaded HCWCs. SWCs run very close to to my cast WCs--which illustrate that the loosest element here is the steering wheel, not the drive train. ME AGAIN.

Very little of this shooting has been at 50 yards--most of my handgun target testing happens at 25 yards. The small bit of 50 yard handgunning has been done mostly with my most accurate handgun--my S&W Model 16-4 x 6". HBWC handloads (Hornady swaged bullets) shoot slightly better than both Lyman #313492 and the RCBS #32-98-SWC, which are a dead heat at 50. The castings do that at more than half-again the velocity of the HBWCs, though. I have cartwheeled a ground squirrel at 115 yards offhand with the RCBS bullet run at 1100 FPS. Sender and recipient were both surprised.

 

[Jeff H]

Chargar summed up the matter succinctly above.

I have never been a huge user of wadcutter-form bullets, and similar things can be said for old-school RN forms as well. My mentors and I were steeped deeply in the semi-wadcutter/Keith-pattern cult, and despite several attempts at de-programming and other therapies I remain an acolyte of St. Elmer.

The tallest barrier to revolver accuracy for me has always been ME. Humans were not designed to be efficient artillery carriages,.....

My own next excursion is along these lines, but with an 18" carbine. The loads are intended to be exiting the muzzle at less than 1kfps, using "target-level" 38 Special loads (in 357 cases) with 148 grain wadcutters and 158 grain RFNs.

I don't expect much from the WCs past 50, based purely on reading reliable authors, but am going to see for myself anyway. The RFNs are to be the solution to what I expect to happen with the WCs beyond t hat distance. Why did I even bother buying a full WC mould if they "don't shoot past 50 yards?" It was a brand new, 6C LEE mould for $26 less than a year ago. So, I figured why not?

Given my experience with the 44s, (I've come full-circle to the 429421 after having tried many other profiles over the years) I'll probably end up shooting the 358429 in my 35s, but playing with the full WC and various RFNs and WFNs in the 35s has been interesting.

I just need to find the time to do this. This thread is timely, as it gives me some extra input to ruminate on while I wait.

 

[Snakeoil]

In a nutshell, the backwards loaded HBWC was a complete failure as a potential defense round.

I was only thinking about accuracy, not a self-defense application. I thought the OP's original question was purely from an accuracy on paper standpoint. I'd actually never heard the myth before. No new ideas, just new people coming up with old ideas.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

Unstable wadcutters past 50 or so yards are tied to velocity. If one loads them "up" stability increases. Im
Speaking to shoot a target wadcutter traveling in the neighborhood of 600 fps.

 

[JustJim]

In the NRA original cast bullets book there was a section on making accurate .38 special handloads. Unfortunately my copy of the book literally fell apart years ago. I don't remember the conclusions that were reached. I do remember that the testing was done in an exhaustingly thorough and scientific manner.

Anybody have a copy of the old book or a link to it if it is online? Might be very helpful to the OP.

Go here: http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ClassicWorks/CastBullets-s.pdf

 

[Michael]

In reading the OP, the thing that stood out to me was the increase in accuracy as the velocity increased, like do in part to higher pressures. This coupled with the choice of bullet- Magnus 501. IME Magnus bullets are hard, way too hard for low pressure loads

I am with Brett in going with a softer alloy. Use same alloy that is being used with the 358212 and 358311, along with the same lube.

Also in regards to the NRA cast bullet book, I do recall the recommendation to only lube one groove.

 

[Bret4207]

In reading the OP, the thing that stood out to me was the increase in accuracy as the velocity increased, like do in part to higher pressures. This coupled with the choice of bullet- Magnus 501. IME Magnus bullets are hard, way too hard for low pressure loads

I am with Brett in going with a softer alloy. Use same alloy that is being used with the 358212 and 358311, along with the same lube.

Also in regards to the NRA cast bullet book, I do recall the recommendation to only lube one groove.

I missed the store bought bullet part! Yeah, that's probably a big part of the problem.

 

[Thumbcocker]

One thing I do remember is that cast wadcutters with only the bottom groove lubed were found to shoot better.

 

[Thumbcocker]

Downloaded the pdf. Glad to have it. 1 3/4 inch groups at 50 yards with cast wadcutters ain't too shabby.