43-287B

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
There is no lead in the bore. There is a distinct but dry lube star.
My take is that the lube groove has done its job and delivered lube when, and where, needed. The fact the groove is largely eliminated but metal moving into its space doesn't really bother me.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
I'm gonna say this before Rick does.
your grip changes are killing you.

he is recommending the where you place your arms and such so you can 'try' to keep the revolver in the exact same position in your hand.
a piece or two of some type of tape you can feel in the same place in your palm or under a finger each time will help.
 

Ian

Notorious member
I don't know if this plays into Brad's technique or not, but for me, the biggest challenge to achieving a consistent grip was actually my elbows. I tried bracing my arms every which way and battled the thin line between too much and not enough support. If I kept my elbows off the table, muscle fatigue would show quickly in my groups. If I sprawled myself on the table and supported my arms too much, they didn't move through recoil consistently, and things changed every time I made the least bit of adjustment to the pads, towels, etc.

Some of the best groups I shot from a bench with a revolver were literally after I said "to heck with it all", threw a towel over my range bag, and used that to rest my forearms on but not my elbows. Sitting bolt-upright in a chair with both arms extended in an isosceles pattern, elbows locked firmly but not hard, forearms just propped on the towel-draped shooting bag, and barrel just barely resting on a flat block (also with towel on it), seemed to work pretty well and I could repeat it. The trick was being able to put the same amount of "preload" on the revolver, as told by how much of its weight I was letting sit on the barrel rest and bag. After cocking the hammer I would slowly lower my arms and the revolver together to touch the rests, just barely, using the rests to steady my arms and the barrel but never leaning on them or slouching on them and always trying to maintain the same pressure by feel. That way my body was moving with the recoil the same way each time, and the follow-through was a lot less choppy. It seems weird that I could hold the revolver better than I could rest it, but I think the answer is in follow through and having a way to feel how much the whole support system was preloaded. The rests were just there as pressure point gauges and to soak up muscle tremor and wiggle, and if I allowed the weight of my arms to be supported too much, sooner or later I'd start to relax my shoulders too much, or my triceps too much, and groups would start to go wild.

I had this wacky idea that a vee-rest for the barrel would be the best. I tried and tried but never made it work, always there was horizontal stringing. With a vee, I was subconsciously leaning just a titch or pulling to one side or the other, and the vee masked that. Using a flat surface under the barrel, and supporting 75% of the barrel weight with my arms, almost floating the barrel off the single-thickness terry towel on a stack of concrete blocks, made me focus on not putting any side load on the revolver.

This is probably all wrong to suggest, and I'm not suggesting it necessarily, but it worked for me. I don't know if this will work well at 200 yards, but it allowed me to shoot a lot of 3" groups at 100 and a number of them smaller, without thousands and thousands of rounds of practice and no one to teach me. This has to be a little like High Power competition, minus the bob and weave. YOU are the supporting mechanism for the gun, the jacket is just there to give your body a reference position, a little bit of support, and to soak up twitches and tremors. Lean on the rests too hard, and you lose control of the gun....unless you're shooting a benchrest rifle which you want to do the opposite and touch the gun as LITTLE as humanly possible and make the bags do 100% of the work.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
I'm gonna say this before Rick does.
your grip changes are killing you.

he is recommending the where you place your arms and such so you can 'try' to keep the revolver in the exact same position in your hand.
a piece or two of some type of tape you can feel in the same place in your palm or under a finger each time will help.

I beat ya to the punch, I didn't want to sound like I was scolding him in open forum so I tried again to explain the grip in a PM. This is a part of what I tried to get through to him. Might have made him mad cause he never replied.

Hold the gun with your dominate hand NO tighter than needed to prevent trigger pull from pulling the sights off. Any tighter is too tight. Use support under your forearms and not under your hand, wrist or grips. Allow your hand and completely relaxed arm to simply follow the gun up in recoil. This is accuracy shooting from the bench, not any type of combat or self defense close range shooting which is an entirely different animal. .
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
It is largely an issue of getting the right setup to do what you guys are saying.
I may build a box to bring to get the entire rest and such up high so I can sit more upright. A softer bag like Ian mentioned may well help. Elbow positioning has been an issue and leads to some horizontal dispersion.

I don't know who designed the benches at the club but they are fine for a 5' 2" guy who wants to hunch over his gun but not for anyone else.
 

Will

Well-Known Member
I built this style bench to give me lots of room when shooting rifle and pistols. I'm 6'6" 245lbs and need lots of room to get comfortable.

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Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Problem with ours is the seat is too high in relation to the top. I need to make something to get an extra 4-6" of height on the bench so I'm not forced to hunch over.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
2x4's are 3-1/2"
2x6's are 5-1/2"
you could make a false top for the benches, and pad it too.

I shoot from the same bench at our club every time, all my stuff is set up for it, and none of the other members will use it if I am there.
they all have their bench and their stuff is adjusted for it.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
That is exactly what I'm leaning towards. Once I get it figured out things should progress faster.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
I usually get better groups from Keith reclining position, with wrists...or a bit closer to the elbows, actually,
between my knees, with a solid backrest. Seems to get the most consistent recoil combined with reasonably solid
support. That said, I never beat 4" at 100 with a revolver, only with Lone Eagle 7-08, off a bench. :rolleyes:
 

358156 hp

At large, whereabouts unknown.
That is exactly what I'm leaning towards. Once I get it figured out things should progress faster.

Design in a way to weigh the box down or clamp it to the bench top. I switched to used walnut media in my sandbags eons ago, but I still have several filled with gravel to weigh things down at the range, primarily my overly light portable target stand bases.
 
F

freebullet

Guest
Our benches were definitely designed by evil midgets:confused:. Been a struggle for me too.

I'm shocked so few folks here admit to smearing grooves off. When I first started out an abundance of soft serve was all I could find. You can do a minor tumble lube to get away with the soft stuff a little.

In the vid it seems like the trigger was released early. Do my best when the gun recovers & the trigger is still pressed. May be over the top on follow through but, it helps me.

I rest the frame just in front of the cylinder only. Having a smaller contact point doesnt help the wobbles but, improves consistency in recoil motion. Seems like that gives more repeatable positioning when no rest is used. I'm typically testing at 50 though, it's an easier ballgame.
 

358156 hp

At large, whereabouts unknown.
A question for you Brad. How does this bullet design chamber for you when the throats get a little fouled? I've had issues in the past with original design Keiths with the full diameter front driving band being sticky when reloading with an even slightly fouled throat. I even lost a pin match because of this issue.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I have shot the gun without cleaning after the previous session. No real trouble at all. The last 1/8" or so takes a little push but nothing excessive.
I tumbled the bullets, unsized, in a little BLL and let it drive for a day. Makes sizing easier and gives the nose a little lubrication too.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
IMG_2407.JPG
Made some changes to my bench setup. Learned a few things.
This was with air cooled bullets, roughly 13 BHn. 21.5 gr of H110 in 445 brass with a CCI 350 primers.

Once, or IF, it dries out some I will try and recover a few bullets of varying hardness. I want to see if HT prevents deformation of lube groove as well as a richer alloy.

4.5 inches for 9 shots isn't bad. Why 9? Because the first from a cold barrel was off paper and the scope was adjusted.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Ok, now that is getting serious, Brad. You are about now where I reached my best. I
expect you to cruise on by, with superior knowledge and bullets, and probably better
shooting technique by the time you are done with Rick teaching you. I just sort of
did what seemed good, no coaching, little real knowledge, so I couldn't really progress.
My basic gun and ammo accuracy and skills were what they were, and I was too
ignorant to know what else to even try.

I am pretty sure that you will progress. Very interested in following this quest.

Bill
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
The bench setup is so critical. Far more so than I realized.
I want to try a few different primers and loads too. Fed 150 primers did well in this revolver with last bullet so I want to work up a load using them. They give about 100 fps less velocity with same load when compared to CCI 350. I figure another 1/2 to 1 gr of powder will get the velocity back up there. I will look for consistency more than speed.