45-70 Blow up

[KHornet]

Our club newsletter reported the blow up of a Marlin 45-70, with injuries. This did not happen at our club per the announcement. The charge was caused by a misinterpretation of load data from a manual. The charge should have been 22-24 gr of 2400. (A load I have used for many years). The charge that blew the rifle was
in excess of 40 gr. of 2400. Blew the bbl off the rifle (it was reported) Pressure must have been gigundous. No loss of fingers, injuries to face, and loss of a chunk of left hand however did result.

I have been using 2400 for many years in many rifles and handguns. It is a powder that can without caution be double charged. I have loading manuals that go back into the 40's, and I believe in using multiple manuals as references when loading unfamiliar cartridges. Any load with any powder that is less than 1/2 of the case capacity (to the mouth of the case), it has been my practice for many years to charge and immediately seat or at lest place the bullet in the case mouth. Cast bullet shooters, frequently use less than half case powder charges. I always look at a minimum of two manuals, often three or four when loading unfamiliar powders. When I was a university safety director, I used to end lectures with "it hurts to get hurt!"

Paul

 

[Chris]

That hurts, eh?

 

[oscarflytyer]

wow! 40+ grns of 2400?!? Musta felt like a howitzer when it went off!

 

[Ben]

The horror stories I'm hearing now about what reloaders are doing, it is amazing that we don't hear more about this kind of thing..........

Ben

 

[quicksylver]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?306355-swedish-mauser-incident-at-the-range-yesterday

 

[JSH]

I don't know what to say. One has to pay close attention no matter what powder is used, period.

I recall of several kabooms caused by getting 4756 and 4759 mixed up.
I know it works in a lot of bottle neck cases, but I save my 2400 for cartridges that digest it on the full side.

Unique. What can I say that has not been said a multitude of times? It works and is a favorite of mine.

Yes, I know I am preaching to the choir. But folks we have a WHOLE new batch of folks in the reloading game. A lot of them,and I do mean a LOT, believe everything they read on the net.

Typo's got me almost into a bind about 1999 or 2000. I was fooling with some milsurp powder. A gent had fat fingers such as I. Somthing just did not sound right and I stopped and started asking questions. Glad I did.

I hat to be on the negative. But today's shooters/reloaders enter into this with less caution. They seem to want instant success. If they don't get it in the first two or three tries, it is the guns fault or the cartridge. Never ever the person on the trigger.

I spoke to a fellow referred to me because I had messed with what was known as the "super slows". I warned him from the get go, use slow powders. He deemed me a nut. Shortly he blew up an AR. Then none the less loaded the same cartridge in a bolt gun and locked it up.
He called and asked me what the issue was. I told him it is YOU. I don't claim to know everything. I have never locked up any gun from an over load.

Dunno.
Glad the individual is alive.
Jeff

 

[Chris]

I hat to be on the negative. But today's shooters/reloaders enter into this with less caution. They seem to want instant success. If they don't get it in the first two or three tries, it is the guns fault or the cartridge. Never ever the person on the trigger.

You know, that is a very good point. These young guys, especially if they have a little money, want instant success using new and expensive equipment and racehorse tactical stuff. They absolutely don't respect experience and prefer to get their knowledge from idjits on the internet whom they have never even met and whose qualifications are unkown. They seem to worry more about what to equipment to buy than what to do with it.

I expect to see more problems like this but I cringe thinking about it.

 

[JWFilips]

I will have to quote: "34 grains of 4759 will do that"!!!!

 

[freebullet]

Accidents happen. Fortunately, I haven't had any serious issues but, have caught some potential issues at the reloading bench over the years. I've made significant changes to my loading process to eliminate potential problem areas. Nothing can replace paying close attention to details.

I always tell newbies "your making little pipe bombs, if you don't do it right you can blow your face off or worse".

I had a squib a few years back. Very happy I had just warned the girls about them & what to do if it occurred. I fired the rest of the batch myself to make certain there wasn't a double to follow.

It can happen to the best of us.

 

[quicksylver]

Even good cases and good loads with good bullets blow ..as I found out when using an American Eagle case in one of my 1911's..went into battery just enough to fire but not locked up ...got nine new holes in my face..I WAS wearing real safety glasses....blew the mag out and the stocks off..threw all the rest of the cases away after full length sizing them and checking them in the gun..

 

[RBHarter]

Just because it's good data from proven sources with good triple checks doesn't make a load safe with any change .

I have a little bitty wildcat . A simple .007 neck up . Using the load data for the parent cartridge 1 gr from the book max I had primer spray . The LRP pocket opened up to .215 . I'm guessing that 52 kpsi load was closer to 75 kpsi if not more . That was from approved data for a smaller cal kind of like using 270 data for a 280 or 260 data for a 7mm-08 with the same bullet weight .

I figure it was the change in the throat and twist rate .....

 

[Bret4207]

My experience mirrors what some others have said, that the newbies don't read, don't ever go to a seminar or even a webinar, think equipment will make up for inexperience. Back when I was real active on the other board I was continually cautioning noobs to forgo the progressive loaders and start real cheap and simple with a single stage loader or even a Lee "Whack-a-mole" kit. I don't know if any of them ever took the advice. I rather doubt they did. I imagine most of us started out like I did with nothing but a few manuals, books and magazine articles to learn from. I know if it hadn't been for Uncle's Elmer, Skeeter, Dean, Ken Waters and a few others I'd have never got into this like I did. Maybe it was because we knew that we were treading unknown ground that gave us a sense of caution? All I know is I went through the same stages I see everyone else go through, including shooting very, very hot loads in light guns. The Colt Cobra is not a Ruger Redhawk!

So whats to be done about it? We can shout till the cows come home, but one guy with a snazzy You Tube account or that makes up some sterling internet credentials that he doesn't actually possess is going to get more credence than a bunch of what amount to "old guys" urging caution, double checking, note keeping, etc. Such is life!

 

[JSH]

RB, I consider wildcats a whole different area. No matter how old or how new they are.
When one goes to necking up or down and moving shoulders around, "things" can happen, in a hurry.

After the 22rf ammo crap, that is still going on IMHO, I got ticked and revisited the Hornet. That in turn has lead me to some of the small bores. 20's and 17's, I read about everything I could get my hands on. 1/10 in some of these little cases can get spooky real quick. I have erred on the slow side of powders. I lose a few fps but no pressure issues. A case full, flush with the mouth and stuff a bullet on top of it. I have no idea how Hornady got another 1/2 grain in there, I used an 18" drop tube and still a fair bit off from their listed max.

 

[RBHarter]

Good news JSH the 41' Terni Carcano handled that very well . In truth I learned in about 10 seconds what would have taken about an hour to read if you happen across the note that says " most of your moulds in your alloy will cast heavy unless you're counting on them to cast heavy " ....

There is always talk about weigh lots for accuracy . In my experience up to that point the moulds from that maker had been very close to as advertised . This particular mould however a 27-130 FP was a little heavy , when I pulled the rest of the work up lot and pulled down the bench stock the expected 132-35 bullets were 144-45 . As always more to the story than a appears .....
The 6.8 doesn't have any data really for anything over 130 gr so yeah out in the weeds and .4 took me from nice round 30-35 kpsi appearance to twice that . Good lessons learned about paper patch loading also .

 

[Intheshop]

A black 1980's,2 D cell Maglight sits patiently in the top of an "early" Kennedy machinist cab/chest in my gun room.It effectively only has two missions in it's life.First is by rules,the required competitor lite for night,coon shoots with traditional bows.The other is to look down into rows of charged cases in reloading.

I understand folks that are in a hurry in their loading processes......it is what it is.For me it's about single stage presses,precision,zero run out,enjoying the experience.....analog if you will.

Hope the guy in the OP makes a great recovery.

 

[Bret4207]

"Analog"...I like that!

 

[JSH]

This may be some what of a rant this morning,so am sorry for that. It does pertain to some of the above discussion.
Newbies of all ages mind you, jumping in feet first. Buy a progressive, because they don't have time to fool with a single stage! Most are as mechanically inclined as a duck to begin with. Their tool box contains a hammer, pliers and various screw chisels, a set of sheet metal stamped wrenches that came free with a computer desk assembly kit.
Don't have time, they should NEVER have started until they did!
I dealt with this just recently. Guys progressive set up,he was having issues. Long story short he had a seating die in the sizer, all I can guess is he took the dies apart to clean them and got parts all mixed up.
Then I got bombarded with the famous "what is the best" and all I have is xxx bullet XYZ case and kapow and kabang powder oh no primers.
Well none of what you have is good for what you are after.
I don't want to have a lot of powders around. Is there one I can use in everything?
Yup, trail boss.
Will it kill an elephant? I have an elephant problem around here.
No.
Well I am going to try kaboom powder and my XXXX bullet in the snap bang pistol cartridge.
That powder is to fast for the cartridge.
Oh, that's what I want is fast.


I dealt with this for an hour on the phone. It bugged me enough I got in the truck and just went over there.

We had a some what longer discussion. I had brought my FA 44 with me. Two seperate loads. Same case, same bullet. I sat them on the table. He looked at them.
Come on let's unload them in the back yard. He was all for that.
One was a pop gun load the other full tilt.
First partial box he thought was a handful.
The second box I loaded a cylinder and told him they may be a bit too much for him. Nope, he is a manly man and can handle it.
I warned him, if you drop that rig, you will PAY for damages.
He handled the first one, and that was all he wanted.

I think, I HOPE a light came on for him.

Since it was a progressive, we did set it up to run one thing at a time. I do not that helped him get a grasp on what was going on.

Dropping powder. As noted above, I myself look at charges with a light on a large majority of my loads. Not so handy with a progressive,but it can be done.

Rant off. Sorry to preach to the choir again.
I sure hope I don't get a call to visit anyone at the hospital.

 

[Brad]

He like some fast? Give him a large nail, a hunk of wood, and a tack hammer. He can swing that little hammer really fast but it will drive the nail slow. Now give him a small sledge. He will swing it slow but it will drive the nail fast.

It is a matter of learning what terms mean and how they relate. Got to crawl before we can run! People today want instant gratification and don't understand that "Google it" doesn't answer everything. Some stuff just takes time and first hand experience.

 

[Ole_270]

No amount of technique will overcome a mis-reading of manual data. Double checking powder weights in the manual should be common practice. That said, I started over 40 years ago to drop the powder charge and immediately seat the bullet. It's not as fast, but interruptions happen and I know where I am in the process. The only thing I use a cartridge tray for is to stand the cases up to spray with case lube.

 

[Ben]

There are individuals on the internet encouraging you to use " XYZ Load Data."

Better be VERY CAREFUL with these keyboard cowboys.
I have much more confidence ( About 10 X more ) with powder company load data vs. these individuals that are recommending certain loads and the only basis for their recommendation is that " Bubba " shoots that load and it hasn't blown up his gun yet.

With that said, all an experienced reloader has to do is get a bit distracted and transpose a number from a reliable load data source and you have instant trouble on the hands.

Ben