458 SOCOM Bullet Hardness

[358156 hp]

Daily life has been interfering with my 458 SOCOM project, but I'm finally ready to start loading for it. One thing I want to work with is Lymans 458122 HP mould (of course). I've never experimented with is hollowpoints above average revolver velocities, and I'm a bit concerned about coming up with an alloy that will handle the SOCOMs velocities. My initial thought is 75% lino, cut with 25% 1-20 lead/tin alloy. According to the alloy calculator this should end up around 18 bhn, but I'm concerned with the ability of the alloy to expand consistently at the estimated velocities around 1900 fps. The tin & antimony numbers look like I may need to add even more tin, which is doable, or change the mix to something more like 55% lino/45% WW, & 5% tin. Crunching numbers is easy to do, but selecting an alloy that will give me what I feel I need in real world terms isn't an exact science. I'm not sure which approach to start with. The goal is for an alloy malleable enough to reasonably expand, but strong enough to hold together upon impact. I have this idea of a return to deer hunting this fall, and want to use the SOCOM upper. My last deer with this class of cartridge (45/70) didn't require expansion at all anyway. What are your thoughts?

 

[fiver]

i think your on the wrong end of the spectrum.

 

[Brad]

I shot a couple deer with that bullet cast from pure lead. Loaded via sabot in an in-line muzzleloader they left the muzzle at over 1600 fps. They held together while expanding to the size of a quarter. Opened a deer like a can opener.

Fiver is right, go softer. I would go as low as possible on Sb, under 2% if possible.

 

[Ian]

My last deer with this class of cartridge (45/70) didn't require expansion at all anyway. What are your thoughts?

It's a .45 Rifle. Being nearly a half-inch in diameter, it doesn't NEED to expand. It needs a flat nose, nothing more.

If you insist on HPs, use a balanced alloy around 2-2.5% each of antimony and tin. Try heat treating some and air cooling some to compare for groups. Or cast them out of 30:1 and powder coat them. You're proposing pushing plain-based accuracy limits no matter the alloy unless you powder coat.

 

[358156 hp]

It's a .45 Rifle. Being nearly a half-inch in diameter, it doesn't NEED to expand. It needs a flat nose, nothing more.

If you insist on HPs, use a balanced alloy around 2-2.5% each of antimony and tin. Try heat treating some and air cooling some to compare for groups. Or cast them out of 30:1 and powder coat them. You're proposing pushing plain-based accuracy limits no matter the alloy unless you powder coat.

They'd be powder coated. I also have plenty of 30:1, and 20:1. I felt they might be a bit too soft for the velocities involved. I'd probably be better off with a heavier bullet too. Things like this are getting difficult to find right now.

 

[Ian]

The SOCOM is pretty much a two-trick pony, everything in between is a compromise regarding trajectory. 300 grains at max pressure for 18, maybe 1900 fps from a carbine barrel or 500 grains at 1,000 fps and a nice serialized muffler screwed on the end. 400 grains at 1,500 fps is no slouch at killing stuff but rainbows so badly there's not much point when you can trade a little weight for speed and get the same energy with 50 more yards on your point-blank range. I kind of had the bug once to bore a 250-grain gas check mould and put a big, deep hollow point pin in it to make the bullet as long as possible for best BC and see how fast I could sling them, but I lost interest after getting into the large-frame AR game.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I use the bullet in my 45/70 & sized down my 450 Bush Master.

I cast both about COWW hardness and target 1600 fps. About as perfect a expanded bullet could be IMHO.

CW

 

[Bret4207]

As has been noted by far greater minds than mine, if you want expansion, you don't want "HARDCAST". Find out what fits the gun at your desired velocity with your desired bullet and start tweaking from that point. Assuming higher velocity requires a harder alloy, especially when it's only 1900 fps, is a flawed concept IMO.

 

[358156 hp]

"Hardcast" is a reference to the practice of adding different metals to lead to harden, or perhaps more accurately strengthen lead (bhn 5). Most common in the olden days was the use of tin (bhn 7). 1:16 (11bhn), 1:20 (10 bhn), 1:30 (9 bhn), were all popular, and did serve to harden (strengthen) the alloy. This counts as "hardcast". Later, wheel weights & various type metals became more available, and have been popular as stand alone "hardcast" alloys, or as additives to strengthen lead based alloys. All of these count as "hardcast" as well. There is no actual definition of "hardcast" beyond adding additional elements to pure lead to strengthen it for a specific task. I won't even address heat-treating in this context because it is not possible to harden lead without alloying it in some manner. It is not necessary to harden bullets to match the temper of the hinges of hell, but it is interesting for many. It is entirely possible, and often desirable to strengthen (harden) an alloy to a specific level to fulfill a specific purpose.

 

[Brad]

I think of hard cast as a marketing term, not a real descriptor.

 

[358156 hp]

It's not precise enough to be an effective descriptor.

 

[Ian]

In my mind I equate "Hardcast" with Taracorp "Magnum" which is 50/50 Linotype alloy and pure lead. It is terribly top heavy with antimony, famous for leading, and looks great after a bumpy ride across the country.....as does the "commercial hard" crayon lube which is also part of the problem.

 

[Bret4207]

I think of hard cast as a marketing term, not a real descriptor.

Exactly. So many people, (me included before I became enlightened), bought the "harder is better" idea and pursued the "HARDCAST" holy grail and saw absolutely no positive change in accuracy, leading, terminal performance, etc. The idea that a "harder" (Bhn number) alloy is just automatically better has done more harm to this sector of the shooting sports than anything else I can think of.

As regards the OP, you said it all in just a few words, "...selecting an alloy that will give me what I feel I need in real world terms isn't an exact science." You have two choices- go with what you feel you need or go with what the gun wants. One way or the other you have to make a choice and start somewhere. I'd lean towards the easier to obtain, less expensive/time consuming end of things every time. If you want expansion, especially at lower speeds (1900) you want an alloy as soft as the gun will handle nicely, or at least that's my take on it.

 

[L Ross]

My whole impression of killing deer was altered after transporting a convicted deer jack lighter from an adjacent County's jail to our jail so he could serve his violating sentence in our county. His rifle was a Savage bolt gun in .22 Mag. His ammo choice was flat nose FMJ and his target was the heart. Range was up to about 75 yards. He claimed to have not recovered only one deer of 60, and that only because a farmer had become suspicious and drove over and scared the kid and his Uncle away before they could recover the deer.

There was a lot of rationalization about two families with 9 mouths to feed and how many hundreds of AG kill permits our DNR issues for the area they were poaching in. And how the land owners with all of these kill tags exclude everyone but friends and family from filling them. But what I found interesting was his claim that the deer shot seldom went more than the same 30 yards or so we see when we blast their chest cavity to flinders with a jacketed .270 or whatever.

I shot a doe with a plain base .30 caliber 31-150-CM with a chrono'd muzzle velocity of 1,630 fps with "The Load" of Red Dot one time a few years back. Basically no expansion, but a broken leg, hole in a lung, radial split through the heart, another hole in a lung, an exit out of the far side rib cage and the doe made 4 bounds stopped, her tail shivered and she fell over dead with the other 5 or 6 deer standing around looking at her. I paced the path she took at 24 regular paces. I watched the whole sequence from my tree stand. She may have lived 7 to 10 seconds after I pulled the trigger and did even seem to be under duress.

A .45 caliber flat nose of any hardness absolutely cannot fail if properly placed and one of the great benefits to our hobby is we shoot more that the average hunter and therefore placement should not be an issue for us. Rainbow trajectory? Well put some limit on what your delivery system is capable of. I can hardly find a spot in my woods to shoot 100 yards without intervening trees and branches. Over the years I'd say most of the deer I've shot have been under 50 yards. If I expected to shoot more than 100 yards I probably won't be shooting cast bullets anyway.

RockyDoc always says if you shoot them in the neck they go zero yards and he is right on. My neck shot deer are instantly dropped. Some discipline is required, but that's not a bad thing either. Any rifle that'll hold 3" at 100 yards is fully capable of neck shooting deer cleanly. The bullet will impact at 1 1/2" or less from the point of aim. The rest is up to us.

 

[Bret4207]

Some of the jackers I arrested liked long barreled 22 rifles and standard velocity solids. The idea was that since they were popping them between the lookers at under 100 feet, a nice quiet gun sometimes allowed them to take more than one deer in a group. But I agree that the 22 Mag was the poachers favorite. Only the fools and noobies used the 30-30 or '06, too noisy! I didn't mind the guys trying to feed the kids at home. It was the ones that were doing it for money that I got a belly full of!

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I cast the RCBS 300 FN for my buddy cause he is set up for hard stuff in his cast masters. I cast from smaller pots so easier and I almost always have one with softer alloy.

12/13BHN works just fine for him.

CW