9mm PC/Lead residue

[Lagamor]

I don't post much here. Kinda new to casting. I had great success with the Makarov round, but my venture into Luger has been a disaster. I thought I had it worked out with the last batch, but then this happened.

The rounds are leaving a ring of PC/Lead residue that is contributing to the jamming.

Most of the rounds fire fine, but roughly 5% are jamming the slide and preventing it from going into Battery. I can't rack the slide by hand. I have to push the front of the slide on a table and push the back of the grip.

130 Grain MP Hollowpoint
PC coated
Sized 0.357"
Tested barrel slug 0.355"
4.1 gr Bullseye
Winchester Sm Pistol primer
1.010" COAL

I'm going to use more belling in the powder drop station, but I don't think that will solve the issue. Sizing smaller is likely to lead to other problems. I would like suggestions before I have my CZ 75 variant chamber throated.

I will try to post pictures.

 

[Brad]

I would have the barrel throated. I bet the loaded round is having some PC and lead shaved off by the sharp edge.

 

[Ian]

What Brad wrote.

The other option is try sizing .356" and see what happens. I size PC bullets to .4515" for my .45 ACPs due to shaving with anything larger in some of them.

 

[Lagamor]

Thanks guys. I'm going to order a NOE sizer and try 0.356". If the issues continue I will have the barrel throated. I think I would have better luck if the edge of the throat was chamfered.

 

[fiver]

are you seating and crimping in one step.

 

[Lagamor]

No, using Dillon dies. Seating and Crimping are different stations.

 

[Brad]

Something is wrong with the dies. You are scraping the coating off on seating.
Can you show a photo of the case after belling? Maybe with and without a bullet sitting in case mouth? I would also like to see a bullet pulled after seating.
If using the stock Dillon powder funnel that is part of the problem. It is made for .355 jacketed bullet and likely opens case to .352 or so. I made a new funnel and it opens the case much more.

Throating the barrel is a good thing but won't overcome the scraping off coating on seating. Getting the bullet seating unscathed is just as important as getting it into the bore unscathed.

 

[Ian]

Another thing to look at is powder burn speed. BE is kinda snappy, but has a long burn compared to TG and some others in the same burn range. You might try WW231/HP-38 or even something in the Unique/Universal/AA#5 burn range, along with sizing smaller, to prevent riveting the base of the bullet before it even gets to the throat. With PC, you can get away with nearly groove size bullets some of the time, though having a gas check is good insurance if you do. I like at least half a thousandth over groove dimension, and so far never more than .001" over unless the throat is super-sloppy. The slippery, tough PC coating lets the bullets behave a little more like copper jax at launch, tolerating more "rattle and hum" in the throat than plain cast and not having to fill every nook and cranny with bullet to get a straight launch, but still the powder kick and alloy bounce have to be right for the system or you'll have trouble.

 

[popper]

Can't tell for sure fro pics but it looks like excessive crimp. From the nose ding, feed problems - if setback then you create that bulge at the mouth. I'm using 4 gr. WST under a 130, coated. no problem in XDs. Try some uncoated dummy rnds loaded the exact same way to see what the problem is. Seater shaving problem shows those little C shavings at the ram. Taper Crimp usually pushed lead over the case mouth. You didn't post your alloy type on CB either. As I posted on CB, COAL is a SUGGESTION. Do a barrel plunk test on your ammo to find the real culprit, the fix what needs to be fixed.

 

[Ian]

Actually loaded the photo and JEEZUS those are mangled. Need a little reloading 101 training there with about the last three operations. Not enough bell, killing the crimp about 100x what's needed, no wonder you're having problems, the coating + some lead is shaved off before you ever poke them in the magazine. If you aren't inside deburring the cases, you need a lot more mouth bell like Brad was saying above. When I answer these sorts of questions I assume that the handloader has already corrected the obvious stuff, now if I'd learn to take the time to just look at the pictures.....

 

[Cherokee]

++ what Ian said about belling, crimping, careful seating. Those "C"'s are very telling.

 

[fiver]

it looks like we are all seeing the same thing here.
my reply at C/B mirrors both Brads and Poppers here.
I thought the damage initially was when the round was being fed into the gun, but it looks like the taper crimp is a touch excessive.

the main goal with shooting cast bullets of any type is to get them from the mold to the target with the least amount of damage possible.
this includes dropping them from the mold, putting them in the cases, and firing them.
if you break down each step along the way with that goal in mind, the end results will be vastly improved.

 

[Lagamor]

Sorry for the delayed response, couldn't be helped. I didn't agree with the crimp issue at first, but when I pulled the bullets I found you guys were right. I don't trust calipers to measure +/-0.001" but each and every bullet crease measured just over 0.350". I would've used my mic if I could've found a way to measure them, but I'm happy the calipers measurements were at least consistent.

I think my belling stage is alright, it's a bit too much. I was trying to prevent shaving of the coating when seating. Which happened on two that were seated cockeyed.

Last but not least, the coating was just terrible and I knew that when I did them. No excuse on my part, the powder didn't stick well that evening and I was in a hurry to get them processed and tested. I'm trying to work out my process so I get working bullet. Once I get there I'll work on fine tuning the processes.
This time I added the step of sizing them twice in a Lee sizer, once before coating them and again after that. Before I tried this, some of the coating would rip off at the base when I sized them after powder coating them. Had the same jamming issues.

The bullets also have a darkness on the bottom. I've washed them, but it's not coming off. I wet tumble my brass for two-three hours, then use a dry tumbler with Nu-finish wax so my brass decently clean but I can't tell if they are picking something up when seated or if the coating is rubbing off. I'm not seeing that after I size the second time before loading. Hoping it's picking something up from the bras( In the pictures, the ones on the right haven't been loaded, and the ones on the left are pulled bullets.)

My basic process now is:
1. Cast
2. Size to 0.357" with Lee tool
3. Deburr bases if needed
4. 2 Powder coats with Prismatic powder
5. Resize with same Lee tool
6. Reload on 550B

I just ordered a NOE 0.356" sizer and will go see my local Gunsmith tomorrow for throating and chamfering options. Thanks for everyone's input. Before posting I really didn't want to alter my barrel, but after talking to you guys I'm alright with it now.

 

[Brad]

How deep is that bullet seated? The base is likely getting deep enough to be squeezed down by the brass. 9mm brass has a rapid taper and that bullet may be getting deep enough for the taper to be a factor.

For barrel throating it is damn hard to beat Doug guy on CB. He did mine fast and did an awesome job.

 

[popper]

Thought it was an optical/camera illusion, but the case is sizing the base down. Get the proper LENGTH expander. IMHO I'd shoot some of the PC, properly loaded before I'd spend money to throat. I don't know what advantage throating in this case would provide. If it shoots factory stuff good, it CAN shoot cast good, it's the process that needs work, not the barrel. Often 'blueprinting' is needed for revolvers but not so much in semis.
35-135S works fine in my XDs. ~60 rnds on that target.

 

[Brad]

I'm not positive but I think fiver uses a 38 special powder funnel for ladling his 9 mm on the Dillon 550. Gives a larger and deeper expansion of the case which helps prevent the case from sizing the bullet down.

 

[Ian]

Get the proper LENGTH expander. I

THIS!!!!

9mm brass is harder than a whore's heart and will crush anything less than about 20-24 bhn using standard jacketed bullet "expanding" dies. I haven't loaded much 9mm but when I do I use an RCBS .38/.357Mag expanding die which mic's .355" OD and push it down in the case as far as the bullet base will be seated. This will not enable bellmouthing due to the spud being actually too long for that in a 9mm case, but it gets the brass stretched out to where it won't crush my bullets. Then I use a Lee 9mm PTE die to bellmouth and charge the powder. Cobbled up, but that system does the job needed to prevent extruding the relatively soft cast bullets.

If you're using two coats of PC to cover 9mm bullets, you're doing it wrong says me. Shake'n'bake with airsoft bbs and pick them out with tweezers and place on their bases on non-stick foil to minimize powder disturbance. This extra step takes some time, but then again so does coating them twice. Pre-size if you need to (I size them dry if only a thousandth or two), then shake/bake and size again like you are doing.

 

[fiver]

I do use the slightly larger powder funnel.
I'm actually looking at setting my 650 up with an M die [to set the neck tension] in front of the powder funnel [and using it to just bell the case mouth]
I'm okay with my hodgepodge die set up for cast with the slightly harder alloy I am using on one of the 550's.
but when I switch to the powder coated bullets I have sitting here I'm thinking I need to re-look at my set up.
especially since I'm planning on running them like jacketed rounds and not the target type rounds I'm shooting now.

 

[358156 hp]

My 9mm Dillon powder funnel has only about 3/16 of straight "pilot" length before it starts flaring the case mouth. This is nowhere near long enough for heavier 9mm bullets (over 124 gr), and borders on ridiculous for some of my 130+ gr cast bullets. I have to use my 38/357 funnel for 357 SIG.

 

[Brad]

Just goes to show that reloading equipment is made for jacketed bullets, not cast. We just need to find a way to manipulate, modify, or make what it takes to work.