Alloy for 357 rossi rifle

johnnyjr

Well-Known Member
Still playing with my rossi with,358 SWC or the 170 gr bullet. I got to thinking maybe I need a harder alloy. Mine are about 11/12 bhn. I noticed no leading.
You guys that have this rifle, what are you using for alloy. One fellow said he uses nothing but Lyman no.2 that's pretty hard ain't it. Oh yeah 158 is gas check the other plain base. Thanks.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
plain base around 10 bhN air cooled.
what's the fascination with harder?
it's never hurt nuthin once you got everything else worked out, but it isn't some sort of magic.
enough is enough, and anything slightly more than pure is generally enough.
 

CWLONGSHOT

Well-Known Member
Hard alloy is expensive. I try to run enough to do whats needed.
Soft for HP expansion and hard for penetration or super high speeds.
If your good @ 11/12 then your hard enough!

CW
 

johnnyjr

Well-Known Member
plain base around 10 bhN air cooled.
what's the fascination with harder?
it's never hurt nuthin once you got everything else worked out, but it isn't some sort of magic.
enough is enough, and anything slightly more than pure is generally enough.
Kind of thought harder would grip the rifling a little bit better. ??
If it's not leading, why do you think you need a harder alloy?
Maybe to improve the accuracy??
 

Winelover

North Central Arkansas
For plinking, my own recovered bullet alloy, that tests about 13-14 BHN with PB bullet. For hunting, 20-1 alloy...........with GC if possible. I get no leading in my Rossi. I conventionally lube and size on the larger (.360) diameter end.

Normally, use 2400 powder. However, for heavy for caliber 180 grain bullets, I get little better accuracy with H-110. If you have any SR4759, give that a try. You'd be pleasantly surprised.

Rossi with SR-4759 1 (1).JPG
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Just my opinion, but if you want to improve accuracy then you have several more effective methods at hand. Trying "ladder" type loads, alternate sizing or no sizing at all if the bullet will chamber, different crimp, no crimp, different powders/primers, casting as near perfect bullets as possible and probably #1- figuring out just how well the gun will shoot in the first place. Bhn is way, way down my list of things to alter group size.

As far as the idea the "harder" alloy will grip the rifling better- You're getting to fit and fit is a lot more than the seemingly simple things that many of us thought "should work". Fact is you can't make a lead alloy anywhere near as hard/tough as copper bullet jacket material. They aren't even measured on the same scale! What you can do with a harder alloy, say something twice as hard as what you have, is bring a whole new set of variables into the mix that might result is really crappy groups and lots of barrel leading. I would suggest playing with the alloy you have for while and figuring out just how good or bad the gun shoots in the first place. If it will lob round after round into the same hole with jacketed, then that's what you shoot for. If a 3" group at 50 yards is the best it will do, then shoot for that.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
to get twice as haarder you'd have to go to lino-type.

increasing antimony from 3 to 6 gets you a whopping [drum roll here] 3~BHN points.
go to 9 and you get more,,, 3 more, go all the way to 12 percent antimony [4 times as much as the original 3%] and you go from 11-12B all the way to 20-21 or so.

what i think your thinking about is a tougher alloy.
even there you have a point where you get no return, you lose the malleability, reflexivness [yeah i made that one up] of the alloy, and the ability to retain gas behind the bullet throughout the barrels slight dimension variances.
where the sweet spot happens to be with a lead alloy as far as being able to do all that and resist shear forces,,, is just right about where wheel weight alloy happens to be.
2.5 to 4% antimony and somewhere close to 2% tin gives you all the tear resistance and hardness you need.

so picking an easy for you to make alloy, that falls within that range and working with it is actually your best bet.
2.5% tin and 2.5% antimony is a very good choice, 2% tin instead or even 1.5% is enough to do all the work that needs to be done by it within the alloy itself.
going to something like 2% tin and 4% antimony is 'probably' at the highest end of the toughness spectrum where the alloy still retains enough shear strength and flexibility to do all that work while still maintaining enough structural integrity to resist higher acceleration forces.

your already running a gas check, so you get to skip all the problems and can simply let the copper chunk on the base do a ton of that work for you.
it's already got a BHN of like 35 [unless your using brass gas checks then it's like 80] not as hard as glass mind you but nowhere near as brittle either.


here's the other thing to keep in mind.
if you want to use your bullets for hunting your swinging the pendulum in another direction altogether.
you ever seen a bullet manufacturer show a bunch of pictures of their 30 cal. hunting bullets that looked like they just fell out of the box, only with rifling marks in them?
maybe with some 4-500gr. African solids,, that was necessary to drive through 6 foot of elephant or buffalo or the like.
i doubt your gonna try that with your 357, so your looking for some expansion along with the accuracy and the penetration your already gonna get.
for that you need malleability/ toughness built into your alloy, and you need it at various velocities... say,, you know a 20yd versus a 120 yd distance where you've lost a couple hundred feet per second.
close up,, full speed you get 50yd 7mm mag on the shoulder performance with a brittle bullet.[only it doesn't have to be on the shoulder]
further out? well you need some smack when the bullet gets there since you can't rely on speed to make the bullet bigger.

part of that equation [actually all of it] is nose shape and diameter of the meplat and the other two parts are speed [higher isn't always better] and alloy.
if you were using a 30 cal rifle to hunt with i could simply write a prescription for success.
if you were defending your home with a snub nose 38 special i could also give you the recipe for success.
and since i've shot a few deer with a lever rifle i can go ahead and say with confidence use something softish at a moderate velocity [14-1500 fps] and a design that has a flat nose.

that's enough for now i guess.
 

300BLK

Well-Known Member
I bought a new Marlin 1894c way back when, and shot jacketed bullets almost exclusively. One day I was in a small shop and spied a box of Alberts 9mm 125 or 130gr hollow points. They were swaged, so very soft, but I loaded them in 357 cases anyway. While I'm sure the loads were pretty modest, they grouped very well. Soft, swaged bullets, likely on the small side of diameter to begin with, seated into 357 cases that likely sized them even more, and then shot through that shallow, microgroove rifling, they shouldn't have worked....but they did! Marlin used 1-16" twist in their 357 barrels vs Rossi's 1-30". 11-12bhn is harder than swaged bullets, so your alloy isn't a problem.
 

Winelover

North Central Arkansas
I've been know to use (9mm) 120 TC in the Rossi for predator control. Since there is no crimping groove, I taper crimp with RCBS 357 TC die.

357 Taper Crimp lyman 120 TC.JPG
 

Dusty Bannister

Well-Known Member
If your throating in the 357 will allow for it, I seat the Lee 356-120-TC so that the case mouth rolls into the lube groove and bumps the front driving band. That covers the lube groove and prevents telescoping in the tube magazine. My mold casts about .358".
 

Winelover

North Central Arkansas
:headscratch:Highly doubt telescoping is an issue with light for caliber bullets......................then there is always the edge of the bench, push test.
 

Dusty Bannister

Well-Known Member
Perhaps I am mistaken. You are loading H-110 and 2400 powders. The Rossi is I believe a tubular magazine. Repeated recoil can cause all the column of cartridges to move under the spring pressure of the follower. Now if this is a single shot rifle, the circumstances are significantly different. But it never was stated by the OP or any others posting to the thread.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
i shoot 200gr lyman swc's pretty often in my lever rifles.
the neck tension keeps everything in place fine.
i'm not running 24grs. of H-110, but recoil is recoil.