Been working on a new : HP bullets for target shooting!

fiver

Well-Known Member
come on just once...
promise I won't link it in a PM.

that first half inch of NON bullet travel can kill you too.
from the base of the neck 1/2" forward is where things go right or wrong and it happens so fast [shrug]
I'm surprised we even get holes in the paper, let alone getting them close to each other.
we think we are doing the right thing measuring, measuring again, tweaking, adjusting the reaction/release speed slightly, moving the peak pressure back and forth.

but we really don't know for sure until we stroke that trigger.
 

Eutectic

Active Member
There's no doubt that neck tension can play a big part! One of the reasons I don't mix in brass just neck annealed with brass shot several times. But breech seating eliminates neck dimension/chamber fit errors. Slower burning powders tend to be more sensitive to a lessening of neck tension over the chronograph (I wish I could look at time pressure curves!!) Faster powders are less so.

So neck errors fit-wise, concentricity of neck wall thickness; can become launch errors right from the get-go! Like Lamar relates to; pre-launch trouble so to speak......

While my T/C deep throat example above is losing some neck tension... I think the .2585" bullet sizing into 5/8" length of a .2585" freebore to rifling adds plenty of initial uniform resistance for the faster .25-20 powders.. More so that a bullet pre-engraved as in breech seating.. My method still has engraving resistance done in perfect alignment. Another advantage to this barrel is you can increase your load (if wanted) due to additional volume. I can turpentine my 'wolf' loads up to maybe the equivalent of a .25 Copperhead Rimmed!

Pete
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
Pete.
i'll give out my 25-20 load if you promise not to laugh.
I'm using the Rapine 72gr plain base mold. [tumble lubed and unsized with 45/45 lube which has bees wax added in]
cast from ww's and some Tin, water dropped
CCI small rifle magnum primers.
AA-2230 [along in the 12.5gr area]
to load them I use a Dillon 550, I use the 30 carbine powder funnel to flair the case mouth.
I would have to re-look but I don't have the right shell plate so I'm either flipping over my 9mm plate or using the 223 plate.

I don't know why this load works, since everything about it is wrong.
but my little carbine length 90+ year old win-92 shoots up to it's potential for sure with that load.
 

Eutectic

Active Member
i'll give out my 25-20 load if you promise not to laugh.
CCI small rifle magnum primers.

What I see off the top of my head is the primer.

While MUCH is written about small pistol primers in the small cases. The .25-20 can be different..... It likes hot more times than not for me!

The .25-20 can be...... no is..... a primadonna! It can be weird; marches to its own drum. I don't say this lightly now. About a dozen guns over a half century makes a point! You need a lot of molds as each gun seems to prefer its own design.

I picked up a couple thousand WW small pistol magnum primers cheap. They are pretty hot! I got them mainly because they are brass colored! I like my grouse loads and wolf loads recognizable fast in the box.!!

I used these primers in my T/C grouse loads..... I wanted the 'heat' because the load is so light... Unburnt powder in my long freebore can be a hindrance getting the long seated bullet into the freebore. Also I use Clays shotshell powder.... Why? It's about as clean burning as it gets. 2.7grs for 1165fps with an 80gr WFN! Like a .25 Stevens High Velocity load!

OK..... I didn't laugh at your load. I see the merit in it actually....

So no one laugh at the picture of the one I call "King of Weird". And don't think this little five pound funny looking thing can't poke a grouse in the eye if you do your part!

Pete
IMG_056612.jpg
 

Ian

Notorious member
that first half inch of NON bullet travel can kill you too.

IMO that's where most people screw up and misleading theories get conjured up. M dies after standard FL dies and the wrong alloy, poor static fit, the list goes on.

Jim, make sure that HP pin is snug in the blocks and dead-center in the cavities or you'll not see much improvement from lightening the nose. Some HP moulds are spot-on with pin center, some the cavities are way off in the blocks and the HP cavity becomes wongo to the centerline.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
I have noticed the magnum or at least hotter standard rifle primers do much better in the smaller cases than regular ones do.
I have had the hotter primers kill groups in the larger cases [223 on up] but they always seem to do better in the small cases.
[25-20/32-20/30 carbine sizes]

well I think we swerved this thread pretty far off course. [as usual]
 

smokeywolf

Well-Known Member
Very interesting thread. Lots of food for thought.
  • Reducing unsupported mass
    • Moving centroid back, closer to axial center of supported section of bullet
  • Breach seat to minimize bullet to case concentricity error.
  • Faster powder to lessen neck tension variables
  • Magnum primers in smaller cases
Could it also be that in addition to blowing out unburned powder granules, the magnum primers are having a similar effect as faster powder does, with regard to overcoming neck tension variables?
 

Eutectic

Active Member
Could it also be that in addition to blowing out unburned powder granules, the magnum primers are having a similar effect as faster powder does, with regard to overcoming neck tension variables?
I would speculate that this might be true....

In my case I think the powder is burning cleaner(more complete)... The barrel is totally clean all the way out. If it burns cleaner and more complete then the time pressure curve should improve as well.
One would just have to do a comprehensive testing to know for sure... That's just how cast bullets are.... So many things interacting!

Pete
 

smokeywolf

Well-Known Member
Forgot to mention Pete, never cared much for the look of the Contenders, but that's about the cutest thing I've seen in a long time.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
I have wondered if the hot primers aren't just 'popping' the case necks open better in the small cases releasing the bullet more consistently.

a while back I was seating bullets like a loaded round and using just primers then 'shooting' them into the throat.
I didn't follow it up by measuring a bunch of stuff like I normally do, I was just checking how things were lining up in a couple of pistols.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Could the mag primer be forcing the bullet gently into the lands while the powder gets going? Talk about a soft launch.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
I kind of think it does but it's also giving the powder just a touch more room to burn in.
I have just made that observation over time and I have also seen it works well with slow powders as well as faster powders.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I may try it in my Marlin 32-20. Always used WSR in the past. I have some WSPM I might try too. Will see what I have for small rifle mag primers.
 

Eutectic

Active Member
My .32-20 Savage Model 23 loves hot primers. I use Federal 205M here. Many Blue Grouse attest to their accuracy and uniformity!:rolleyes:

Pete
 

smokeywolf

Well-Known Member
Loading for 32-20 and both of its daughter cartridges, I reckon I'm going to have to add some Federal 205Ms to the pantry.
 

Intheshop

Banned
So,is a fluted barrel stiffer than a non fluted.....which isn't a question so much as it is a comparison to a HP vs solid.But,am mainly referring to external ballistics(which yes,is effected by internal,and launch irregularities)....Going to sleep distance,from muzzle,and subsequent trajectory.So,which is stiffer?HP or solid.
 

Ian

Notorious member
I might add that IME mag primers will totally scrooch your groups in a .44 maggot revolter with 2400 powder. The lightest possible (Federal LPP) always got me the best groups when I got things ironed out to the point that brisance mattered. I thought only weirdos like me intentionally made repeated intentional bore obstructions and locked-up cylinders via squib loads in the wee hours of the morning so as to see where the flaws in the launch plan might lie, but am happy that's not the case. A marked rod is handy, as is filling the case with inert COW, very revealing what a hot primer can do to the whole payload in front of it. Also very revealing how much primers back out and how much headspace a revolver can have when that microsecond effect is totally masked by the main powder charge hamming things back together again, and flattening primers in the process. When a cylinder gap is involved, the primer-powered bullet might not even break the crimp, or it might put the bullet far enough into the forcing cone to clear the cylinder. The .357 maggot didn't seem to be as susceptible to variations, maybe the smaller case?

Here's some crude drawings I made indicating how crooked starts mangle the bullets, that first half inch thing. If the nose is HPd, I think it might actually make matters worse if the nose cavity ends up not concentric with the aerodynamic center. Evidently noses don't get all that much off center, or if they do, it doesn't matter as much as I imagine.

http://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?attachments/100_4409-jpg.2308/
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
IMO fluting just gives you more surface area. [helps with cooling]

now this is something many don't think about, but cutting on the outer surface of a barrel affects the inner diameter.
it relieves stresses and allows the barrel to let the hole in the middle get larger.
I never understood how a barrel that is tapered/stepped shot well until I realized they were tapered before hand.
[I know insert picture of Homer here]

anyway cutting flutes in a barrel can negatively effect the internal dimensions if they are cut after the fact.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
man in that Pic that poor bullet ain't got no chance of any sort.
I realize it's exaggerated for illustration.
but it has absolutely nothing going for it in that scenario.... nuthin.
 

Intheshop

Banned
The point I was thinking about is that removing material isn't as obvious as it might appear....when it comes to stiffness and in both of these cases (barrel vibes and bullet stability) there is discussion that can support opposite conclusions.

How quickly the bullet goes to sleep,IMO is faster with a HP.Considering equal "enough" care at launch and ride down the barrel.