Flat base bullets, engrave nibs, and accuracy

Ian

Notorious member
So you cast a bullet with a perfectly sharp, uniform base edge, being careful to maintain ideal sprue plate temperature, pour rate, venting, and sprue puddle size. You select a mould which requires the least amount of resizing for the application in order to minimize base flashing. You cull every dinged base. Then you stuff the bullet in a case and blow it through a rifled tube with enough pressure to permanently deform the whole bullet slightly....and probably expect the thing to fly true.

I know I do.

But what about when it doesn't work? What do we change? What is the failure mode? Plain-based or flat-based bullets are still a bit of a mystery to me in how they manage to group well at all. Any base defect from casting or handling will cause the bullet to diverge from the path of its more perfect brethren, probably as a result of gas force acting upon the irregular base and inducing a non-linear force vector, i.e. tipping or yaw. Regardless of how uniform the bullet base may be when the nose is introduced into the rifling, it doesn't remain so as the barrel lands slice across the base band and displace metal. We are left with a little bump and a trailing flag or nib at each land engrave point of our bullets, and there is so much to go wrong with this process with regard to uniformity. If the circle of the bullet base is the least bit eccentric with the groove center, more displacement will occur on one side than the other. Some of the nibs will be less robust than others, potentially breaking off altogether, leaving our bullet with tail fins in one place and not in others, compounding the yaw at muzzle exit and exacerbating dispersion down-range.

Assuming the irregular displacement being the cause of at least some woes, how would we mitigate this with our bullet design? A bevel? A convex radius? A step? A boat tail?

If you were thinking "gas check", well, so was I. I've recovered a lot of gas checked bullets and at the times when I was able to correlate them reliably with fired groups with various loads, the ones with the least base edge deformation and least trailing edge displacement invariably shot the best. Also, placing a hard, thin card or plastic wad disc beneath a plain-based bullet almost always vastly improves groups, especially with an alloy and powder combination that tends to cup the whole bullet base. Buffers also tend to make a similar improvement to plain-based bullet accuracy. But what if the application is of relatively low pressure, low velocity, large caliber, and an extremely tough alloy and/or gas check isn't required or desired? Is there some design feature we can add to a bullet's base to make it shoot better, or is a flat, sharp base the best possible configuration?
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
My feeling and thoughts, with not facts, say that you are looking at a fantasy. It is like the perfect crown, that is B.S. Many test have shown that cutting the crown at 10 degrees to the bore moves the groups center, but doesn't change the groups size. Looking for something to control, doesn't make it important. This is art, not science. Look somewhere else, in my humble opinion.
 
F

freebullet

Guest
Ian, dude, you asked at least 14 questions and answered like 17.;) But I'll play. I don't think we can say flat out one is always better. I really like bthp bullets, but have some insane flat base loads too. I think to determine which is better for any one design would require making a mold with each base configuration with all else being the same.

I'll say I feel like a boatail handles transonic transitions better & that does correlate to the higher b.c.

Flat base cast lead we manipulate the loading on, well I try to anyhow. For example the tg. loads, a bunch of them on paper shouldn't be accurate, but other load manipulation factors like seating depth, muzzle pressure, lube, ect all play a role.

We talk a lot about launching gentle to avoid damage, but the muzzle exit/pressure plays a bigger role than usually discussed. In my mind it would seem correct that a boatail could exit with a more equalized pressure cone.

Our flat base slow lead is normally getting shot @ close range.

It all happens so fast perfect can be different for them all, with each application.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Thinking along the lines of what Ric said here goes.
We have the rifling induce some minor base damage to the bullet. Doesn't the rifling do this to each bullet in a very similar manner? Similar to a crown that is at an angle each bullet is altered in flight path the same at the muzzle.
Would base damage matter if each bullet base was damaged the exact same way and we oriented them all the same on chambering?
Is it really a variable if it is always the same?
 

Fiddler

Active Member
I've had a couple different antique Winchester molds and they both were bevel base. Why did they do, ease of loading? accuracy?
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
I've had a couple different antique Winchester molds and they both were bevel base. Why did they do, ease of loading? accuracy?
Ease of loading. Neither Winchester nor Ideal reloading operations included case sizing or mouth flaring until smokeless powder arrived. Fired case was de-primed and re-primed. There was commonly some crimp left on the mouth of the case. Powder added and the bullet started and seated, then re-crimped. So the bevel base was to ease seating the bullet. HTH, Ric
 

Ian

Notorious member
Crowns are over-rated, for sure. Mann proved that 125 years ago.

Doesn't the rifling do this to each bullet in a very similar manner?

Well, that's the question. I'm going to say no, unless the bullet is breech seated.

What I'm fighting at the moment is a .45 Colt rifle which only holds groups out to 50 yards with three different bullets. Stability factors between seven and nearly ten using the Miller formula. The bullets just start corkscrewing off in all different directions, going from a 2-3" pattern to an 18" pattern in 25 yards. I recovered some bullets from the berm yesterday evening and can find not a single thing wrong with any of them, no signs of crooked launch, irregular engraves, no widening of engraves, no gas cutting whatsoever on the base bands or base edges, nothing. None of the loads lead the rifle at all, bore looks great, used a couple of different known-good lubes, I have no explanation other than some of the lead trailed off from the engraves was missing and some tails were left. Unfortunately it's not possible to tell what happened at launch and what happened with berm impact with regard to these fragile nibs.

In other .45 rifles I've noticed a long, corkscrew bullet flight path that was repeatable enough to see respectable groups. At 25 yards, the POI will be several inches off one direction, while at 50 it will be off just a little farther but possibly in the opposite or near opposite direction, then at 75 is at a different position, and 100 a different place still. One RH and one LH twist tend to do the same thing, very difficult to pick a zero with either of them. When using cards under the bullet bases this effect is greatly reduced, and group size is reduced as well. For some reason, I don't notice this with my revolvers using exactly the same ammunition.

This has bothered me for years and I want to get to the bottom of it. Right now I'm trying to devise some tests to eliminate the irregular base nib thing as a factor. I think the first thing to do is cast some gas-check Lee 300s (I have a 2c mould with one cavity plain-based) and try that with all else the same. Ideas?
 

popper

Well-Known Member
OK, you and I have the same thoughts. My solution was/is to cut the GC shank down to ~0.02". The 'base' is then flat (as I can make it) and the 'edge' is really good. So far it works. The moulds are 'almost' flat sided (I coat) except for a small groove to collect all that alloy from the lands. Example 31-142C. Did a circle ~ MOA @ 100 & 2100 fps from an AR BO. Did a similar one, 150gr in 308MX and got 3 or 4 touching. Working a 170gr for the 30/30 that looks just as promising. Doesn't solve all the problems but is good so far - compared to the 170 RD PB I was using. Oh, adding Cu to the alloy really helps. I've also wondered about light loads, pressure hitting the base unevenly. I've tried poly fill but don't know if it's buffering or powder positioning that helps. I also tried dipping the base in HiTek (like a GC) on BLL boolits, helped for the first shots.
edit: I tried GC style sans GC, OK up to ~1200 fps using LeverE. After that the shank tends to rivet and accuracy goes away. That was with a hard alloy.
 
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Ian

Notorious member
That or I'm just chasing the ghost of Harry Pope.

On one of our Henry threads here there was a lot of banter about expected accuracy from a levergun, and I expect more than most based on past results. My 45/90 shoots great with plain-based cast bullets, my .45 Colt and .45 ACP revolvers and handguns can be made to shoot great with plain or bevel-base cast bullets out to a couple hundred yards, and my .30-caliber leverguns shoot as well as many bolt action rifles, so why doe the .45 Colt Carbine (I've had four of them with 1:16 and 1:20 twists and worked with a 1:38 years ago) fling bullets everywhere once the range is past 50 yards? Why the loop-de-loop bullet flight path with some of them and not others?
 

Ian

Notorious member
OK, you and I have the same thoughts. My solution was/is to cut the GC shank down to ~0.02". The 'base' is then flat (as I can make it) and the 'edge' is really good. So far it works. The moulds are 'almost' flat sided (I coat) except for a small groove to collect all that alloy from the lands. Example 31-142C. Did a circle ~ MOA @ 100 & 2100 fps from an AR BO. Did a similar one, 150gr in 308MX and got 3 or 4 touching. Working a 170gr for the 30/30 that looks just as promising. Doesn't solve all the problems but is good so far - compared to the 170 RD PB I was using. Oh, adding Cu to the alloy really helps.

OK, now we're getting somewhere. When I powder coat plain-base bullets with shake/bake method and pick/place them all on their bases, the combination of PC flashing on the base edge and the trailing flashing from putting them through a push-through sizer leaves this uneven (if very slight) ridge of material hanging off the base of the bullet. This just doesn't work well at all. By standing the same bullets on their noses and base-first push-through sizing, they shoot MUCH better. I prefer gas check designs without the check for my PC rifle bullets rather than plain base for the same reason: The business-edge of the bullet is a cast band which has a nice even coating of paint, and the flashing on the gas check shank/base from contact with the foil has little effect. I was considering a short, rebated boat tail or external radius base design experiment, but not sure which way to go. I have a lathe and can modify bullet bases any way I want, it's just a matter of deciding what to do. I figured I'd do the gas check thing first since I have a mould and already know how the PB version shoots, make sure that fixes it and work back from there.
 

Ian

Notorious member
I consider rifles to be male, bullets on the other hand tend to be female!

Paul

I think of it as the other way around (tab A, slot B) but same concept, there must be hormones in that there barrel steel!
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
Well the answer in the Colts is that the point of departure from the straight line is at the entrance of transonic .

I have shot enough loads through a pair of 1-32" rifles to experiment up to 1425 fps with 4 SWC and 3 RNFPs with Unique , H110 and H322 from 250-350 gr .
If m at 4,000-5,100 ft MSL true supersonic occures here on average about 1110 fps on normal days ( not 59° 50% humidity at sea level at 29.92 inhg ) for here . If the MV breaks 1150 fps the load gets squirrelly , above 1250 all is well again out to the point where the bullet drops below 1225 . At that point trackable to a window of 18' the bullet will depart the line of flight at angles as high as 25° .
Now you can paint that fish with any brush you like .

If the loads leave the muzzle @1050 or less then the drop rainbow takes over . Wanna take a guess at the range ? Within feet of the supersonic line departure . The drop from 75-100 yd is almost a 50% reversal of the supersonic departure .

RNFP hold on better than SWC and heavier better than light .

I don't have an answer as to why this has such a marked consistent effect on 45 vs the 44 .
There is the possibility of the change in actual aerodynamics of the 44 that keeps the 44 in a wobble vs going straight into a tumble .
I would sight the 430421 vs 454424 for an example as I have an altered 430421 at .448 that I have paper patched but I was looking for different gains not 100yd groups at that time .

My fingers are crossed for twist fixing this .
 
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popper

Well-Known Member
Many years ago (big stack of punch cards run on an IBM 360 that took a day), I had to run some computer simulations on rate gyros. I was designing missile systems and had to find how fast I could over-rev them to get stability in a specified time. Don't remember the exact results but funny things happened when slowing down. I don't accept the Miller or modified formula results as accurate. IIRC, stability is a function of dia and length, NOT just length. I saw some PB recovered by 303guy, even short stick powders beat the base pretty bad, so I just use them on GC loads. My HiTek on the base of PB worked ( from your paper pad tests) until the barrel leaded from soft alloy.
Calculate the circumference of 45, surface speed of RPM and guess what the rifling cuts do at that 'speed'. 45 is 50% more circumference than 30 cal. Yea, angular speed isn't supposed to change much down range?
 

Ian

Notorious member
So there might be the problem. My loads are all sub-sonic from the muzzle, by at least 100 fps. Maybe after a few milliseconds the bullet starts climbing the air and the effect affects the flight path by 50-75 yards. There's a boundary layer of air on the surface of any bullet, but it must be a lot thinner or have less insulating effect on a subsonic bullet than supersonic one (.005-8" on supersonic per Vaughn, IIRC). Also, per Ric's comments on the spark gap photos of sub-sonic bullets previously, may we assume that the rifling engraves are actually IN the free stream air?
 

KHornet

Well-Known Member
This thread is getting a mite to tech for me! Tis interesting however I suppose for some!

Paul
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
heck Paul if we don't talk esotericism [new word I had to look up] and bring math into it, we ain't goin far enough.
it's like discussing 3 orrr 4% antimony and whether it takes 32 or 35 day's for your baseline BHN after oven quenching.
we ain't gonna shoot them for 3-6 months but it's fun to talk about.