Henry BB 45 Colt
- Thread starter gman
- Start date
Ian
Notorious member
Yes, I know, read the article. None of it is pressure tested and most of it bumps 20K psi. The Titegroup load is out of sight. I've compared Quickload data to actual velocity numbers with the MP 45-270SAA bullet from 5.5, 7.5" revolvers and even with cylinder gap losses vs. test barrel the 14K psi ceiling in that article is complete BS. I wouldn't use any load on that page except for the Unique load and the power pistol load, and then only under a 255-grain bullet.
Ian
Notorious member
...and Marlins, H&Rs, Winchester '92s, etc, but NOT anything like a toggle-link Henry repro, SAA clone, Open Top clone, or cartridge conversion cylinder that really, really must stay within 14K to hold up. I think the modern Henry BB could take 20K psi, being essentially a Marlin action, but I have several of the other, weaker actions and am trying to build ammunition within the boundary of the lowest common denominator.
RBHarter
West Central AR
This is the only responsible answer .
I pulled .....well actually I just shot up everything in the 357 that I had loaded in 38 brass when I got my Grandfather's 38 . No sense making a mistake . I'm sure everything built in Colts since the 90s will hold the Buffalo Bore ammo but I'd also bet that 1970 and up wouldn't do it very long . Before that odds are they will rattle loose pretty quickly .
fiver
Well-Known Member
what I do is assign one bullet style to my low pressure loads.
and mark all that ammo as being designed only for that/those guns.
the kids got used to finding ammo marked for specific rifles and handguns so understand that everything has specific limits even though they don't understand what/why those limits are.
so if we were going to shoot the USFA's they would go find the 45 colt ammo marked USFA on the flip top box.
but if we were going to shoot the lever guns or black-hawks they would go get the bulk ammo can.
and mark all that ammo as being designed only for that/those guns.
the kids got used to finding ammo marked for specific rifles and handguns so understand that everything has specific limits even though they don't understand what/why those limits are.
so if we were going to shoot the USFA's they would go find the 45 colt ammo marked USFA on the flip top box.
but if we were going to shoot the lever guns or black-hawks they would go get the bulk ammo can.
Ian
Notorious member
I still want to know what ballistics lab developed Brian Pearce's data. If you read the whole article, it has three load levels for the .45 Colt, including the super-duper 32K.........CUP list. So 14K psi and 20K psi data tables are shown, then we jump to 32K CUP, whatever that translates to (it DOESN'T translate). He tested all the loads in, surprise surprise, a Blackhawk, so if course he didn't have any problems. Now I don't know the whole story, so I'm not going to beat up on Brian too much, but anyone with any handloading experience should be able to glance at that 14K data and immediately see some problems. My thoughts is he pulled a Richard Lee and just extrapolated the data.
waco
Springfield, Oregon
So should I treat my Cimmeron SAA clone as a gun that's should only fire 14kpsi loads? And you said you think that the 8gr of Universal is over that and not safe?
It does seem a bit snappy. I'm referring to the RCBS 45-270-SAA bullet.
Of late I have been loading it with 5.5gr of Redot. A bit milder.
It does seem a bit snappy. I'm referring to the RCBS 45-270-SAA bullet.
Of late I have been loading it with 5.5gr of Redot. A bit milder.
Ian
Notorious member
From SAAMI. Note there is no "+P" SAAMI or otherwise official specification for .45 Colt.
Subtract 50-100 fps for cylinder gap losses. Subtract another 200 fps for each 25 grains of bullet mass added. 285-grain bullets loaded to SAA cylinder length and SAAMI standard pressure should see a MV from a 5.5" revolver of somewhere around 650-700 fps at the most, just doing it by dead reckoning.
Now, let's run Brian's 8.0 grain load:
Note that the prediction is within 3 fps of his data from the Blackhawk, but the 5.5" barrel entry in QL may be less than effective bullet travel distance in his revolver. QL is also not predicting cylinder gap losses, so these differences may effectively be a wash.
It should be obvious that the pressure is nearly 4700 psi over his claimed 14,000 psi max data.
According to QL, you'd have to be down at 6.8 grains to be safe, and that's at 1.650" LOA. Most of us are going to load that bullet more at 1.620" which bumps the pressure to over 19K psi with 8.0 grains of Universal.
6.8 grains is predicted to produce 819 fps at the muzzle @1.650 LOA. Subtract 15' from the muzzle, subtract cylinder gap losses, and you end up expecting down around 700 fps actual muzzle velocity from that load and still be in the safe zone below 14,000 psi.
Now, real world: I've actually tested my 5.5" Taylor's SAA using the MP 45-270 SAA and got about 720 fps average MUZZLE velocity with the Magnetospeed strapped around the barrel, 6.5 grains of Universal @ 1.625" LOA. Very close to the dead-reckoning above based on extrapolation of maximum velocity we should see out of a maximum standard-pressure load fired from a revolver and three data samples for bullet weight where the fourth is extrapolated from the first three. Prediction for my load as tested is 13,304 PSI, bumping max. In order to get Brian's 915 fps out of MY 5.5" revolver, but seating .025" deeper, I would have to use 7.9 grains of Universal for a predicted 914 fps...and a whopping 19,076 PSI., and that's without accounting for the cylinder gap losses. This checking real-world data vs. predictions back and forth gives a very clear picture of how over-pressure that supposed 14,000 psi load really is. Like 25% over max SAAMI pressure for ANY SAA clone. Proof loads aren't that hot.
So you can do what you want with your SAA clone, but I've been telling you for some time now that Brian Pearce was smoking crack when he compiled that load data and you should take his information with the same grain of salt you take any information, double-triple check it against published pressure data from as many sources as you can get your hands on as well as the pressure rating of the firearm you use it in, and further do your own velocity testing comparisons with a careful load workup using YOUR components, and finally use your noggin at the end of the day to put it all together and decide what your load limits need to be.
fiver
Well-Known Member
some of the newer pistols can probably take a bit more than 14-k.
what I have found with mine is that a 250gr bullet going 750 fps is accurate and shoots to the sights.
that was the original black powder specifications and the smokeless loads followed suit.
[they were also specified to be able to bring down a horse]
I remember an article Brian wrote in handloader some time ago.
he was shooting his USFA [which I have a pair of] his loads were stepped up a bit and he explained his reasoning for why they were fine.
I almost went there then thought about it a bit.
I'm hitting soda cans at 25-30 yards.
I'm controlling the pistol.
even when rolling 6 rounds out of the pipe in under 3 seconds I'm putting them all on a 12x16" sized steel plate.
all the empty cases just drop right out of the cylinders.
not too shabby for a pair of plain groove sighted revolvers.
do I need more?
meah, maybe? sometimes, but I got guns for that, and I happen to like these ones the way they are.
what I have found with mine is that a 250gr bullet going 750 fps is accurate and shoots to the sights.
that was the original black powder specifications and the smokeless loads followed suit.
[they were also specified to be able to bring down a horse]
I remember an article Brian wrote in handloader some time ago.
he was shooting his USFA [which I have a pair of] his loads were stepped up a bit and he explained his reasoning for why they were fine.
I almost went there then thought about it a bit.
I'm hitting soda cans at 25-30 yards.
I'm controlling the pistol.
even when rolling 6 rounds out of the pipe in under 3 seconds I'm putting them all on a 12x16" sized steel plate.
all the empty cases just drop right out of the cylinders.
not too shabby for a pair of plain groove sighted revolvers.
do I need more?
meah, maybe? sometimes, but I got guns for that, and I happen to like these ones the way they are.
Ian
Notorious member
I just ran Titegroup and it's even weirder. Brian's load, shown as "maximum" in the 14K chart, generated a whopping 986 fps from a 5.5" vented barrel when loaded to 1.550" LOA (presumably, may have been 1.660", he mentions both). That's 15' from the muzzle, too. Figuring an actual barrel length (including cylinder) of 7.12" in QL and his other particulars, I can only get 936 fps at the muzzle, with no gap losses, and at 21,052 psi. To get 986 fps from that system in QL I have to bump the powder to exactly 8.2 grains and that generates 24,546 psi!!!!! Again, muzzle velocity prediction, not at 15' from the muzzle, and without taking into account the cylinder gap losses he would have experienced.
Compare that to Lyman #49, where 250-255 grain bullets loaded to around 1.570-1.600" LOA are consistently listed at 6.2 grains maximum for Titegroup at standard pressures 870-890-ish fps, fired from a 7.5" test barrel. So Brian is getting 986 fps from a 5.5" revolver using a bullet 30 grains heavier, with 1.3 grains more powder and staying under 14K psi exactly HOW??????????????
Compare that to Lyman #49, where 250-255 grain bullets loaded to around 1.570-1.600" LOA are consistently listed at 6.2 grains maximum for Titegroup at standard pressures 870-890-ish fps, fired from a 7.5" test barrel. So Brian is getting 986 fps from a 5.5" revolver using a bullet 30 grains heavier, with 1.3 grains more powder and staying under 14K psi exactly HOW??????????????
Ian
Notorious member
No doubt they can. The Uberti SAA clones are strong guns. Not Ruger strong, but 14K is pretty conservative for them I think. That said, it's enough for me that a system designed for something more like 10K psi, almost all of which is seen only by the cylinder itself with BP, has been stretched out with modern steel to handle much more, and a longer curve to boot with smokeless powders. To push it even more on a regular basis makes no sense and is bound to be tough on the working parts even it it never actually spontaneously disintegrates.
Enough Bullseye, Titegroup, Red Dot, Universal, Unique, or HS-6 for 800 fps from a 7.5" barrel using a 255-grain bullet shoots right to the fixed sights where it ought to and can be shot by the tens of thousands without tearing up the revolver has been my approach to loading for the SAA clones as well.
fiver
Well-Known Member
you didn't account for how titegroup reacts when it starts seeing pressure.
I don't know how it does it but when it is stressed it seems to put out about 30% more gas than the volume would indicate it possible of.
6grs is my maximum with a 250-260.
I don't 'play' with that stuff.
I don't know how it does it but when it is stressed it seems to put out about 30% more gas than the volume would indicate it possible of.
6grs is my maximum with a 250-260.
I don't 'play' with that stuff.
Ian
Notorious member
I agree fully that the 986 fps number is a direct result of the famous Titegroup pressure excursions. Pressure is probably bumping well over 25K psi in reality, even with all the room it has in the .45 Colt case.
Titegroup was intended for something around 10-12K psi shotgun loads under light charges of shot. Pack too much of it behind too much weight and let the pressure start to get up around 20K and it gets stupid really quick, you can see it in the chronograph data with huge ES swings showing up when you reach that tricky point. Used wisely, it's great stuff and just about can't be beat for position insensitivity and consistency inside huge cases at low velocity/pressure.
Titegroup was intended for something around 10-12K psi shotgun loads under light charges of shot. Pack too much of it behind too much weight and let the pressure start to get up around 20K and it gets stupid really quick, you can see it in the chronograph data with huge ES swings showing up when you reach that tricky point. Used wisely, it's great stuff and just about can't be beat for position insensitivity and consistency inside huge cases at low velocity/pressure.
fiver
Well-Known Member
I think it is a re-run of a discontinued Winchester powder [521?] they quit making it because of the excursions
then Hodgdon just seen $$$$ and brought it back around again.
this is all speculation on my part.
but I'm pretty sure they returned it to the market because Remington was/is using it in their nitro target shot shells.
it is actually a good shot shell powder, I use it in a 1oz load I put together a number of years ago to shoot grouse with.
it actually operates my 3-1/2" win super X-2, but I use it in my win-1300 out to about 25 yds I can just take their head right off with that gun.
but I have been thinking about re-visiting it again for some other shotgun applications
then Hodgdon just seen $$$$ and brought it back around again.
this is all speculation on my part.
but I'm pretty sure they returned it to the market because Remington was/is using it in their nitro target shot shells.
it is actually a good shot shell powder, I use it in a 1oz load I put together a number of years ago to shoot grouse with.
it actually operates my 3-1/2" win super X-2, but I use it in my win-1300 out to about 25 yds I can just take their head right off with that gun.
but I have been thinking about re-visiting it again for some other shotgun applications
Ian
Notorious member
571 maybe? Just a guess, I just put away my loading manuals a little bit ago.
I always wondered why 473AA was discontinued and why there wasn't much pistol data for it, probably the same thing with wonky pressures. Using some old Speer data I found it works just dandy for light-bullet .38s and for .45 ACP with target 200-grainers, but that's all Speer listed it for anyway so I figured there was a good reason.
I always wondered why 473AA was discontinued and why there wasn't much pistol data for it, probably the same thing with wonky pressures. Using some old Speer data I found it works just dandy for light-bullet .38s and for .45 ACP with target 200-grainers, but that's all Speer listed it for anyway so I figured there was a good reason.
Ian
Notorious member
I swear they changed 231 about 15-20 years ago and I'm pretty sure it is now the identical product to HP-38. WW231 used to be dull grey in appearance and shot really, really well in .45 ACP with 230-grain bullets of any kind. Now it's super-shiny and just doesn't seem to be as consistent, really disappointing, or maybe it's just the particular factors relating to my experience with it.
473 is fine flakes with a greenish tint like the old Aussie Universal had. I'm not really up on Winchester powder history but it seems like most of their old stuff has gone the way of the Dodo or become repackaged/reject runs of other Hodgdon powders. You've heard my rant about 748 burn rates many times.
473 is fine flakes with a greenish tint like the old Aussie Universal had. I'm not really up on Winchester powder history but it seems like most of their old stuff has gone the way of the Dodo or become repackaged/reject runs of other Hodgdon powders. You've heard my rant about 748 burn rates many times.