how come

fiver

Well-Known Member
I got to wondering today.
how come I don't get leading in my rifle barrels but I get copper in them.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Gas blowby in the throat during the jump and bullets slightly smaller than groove diameter. Dusted copper ironed on. Yeah, and lack of lube doesn't help.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
How come bearings are often made from alloy similar to our bullets?

And we DO get a similar result with high Sb alloys when we get an Sb wash.
 

Eutectic

Active Member
Townsend Whelen was lubricating jacketed bullet a hundred years ago for military competition..... and getting four+ times the accurate barrel life! Why did we stop?

It's one of my back burner projects to test lubricated jacketed against the same bullet dry. thinking on a way to quickly swage or roll in grease grooves. Tumble lube won't tell me what I want.

Pete
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
I tried 6 different ways spell check won't give the crimp groove name when it is rolled into a jacketed bullet . One of those tools would do the job . Of course if you're flush you could try it with a TSX or TTSX .
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Townsend Whelen was lubricating jacketed bullet a hundred years ago for military competition..... and getting four+ times the accurate barrel life! Why did we stop?



Pete
The main problem was that it was a non-compressible grease (Mobli-lube?) the bullet was dipped in before loading. That lead to grease getting on the case neck, and causing over pressure case failures. That lead to using the tin plated bullets that self soldered to the inside of the case necks. That lead to the conclusion that it was best just to just guilding metal bullets plain.
 
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Ian

Notorious member
BLL would work. Works with subsonic 7.62x39 loads using a .308" groove barrel and Sierra 220 SMKs.
 

Eutectic

Active Member
The main problem was that it was a non-compressible grease (Mobli-lube?) the bullet was dipped in before loading. That lead to grease getting on the case neck, and causing over pressure case failures. That lead to using the tin plated bullets that self soldered to the inside of the case necks. That lead to the conclusion that it was best just to just guilding metal bullets plain.

Some things never change....... Even today with our cast bullets many think "If a little lube is good; then a lot of lube is even better!"

Indeed too much grease was a bad thing and was the reason they stopped doing it. whether it was because it was 'a lot is better' like above or just a slob doing it is not known a hundred years later.... We do know Whelen knew though. he wrote about it in his book "The American Rifle" for a chapter.... Chapter XVIII in fact. On page 409 he even mentions a little tool called the 'spitzer greaser'! This tool allowed only a thin film of grease to be applied to the bullet only. At least lube grooves on a bullet govern too much being applied. Maybe........

Pete
 

Eutectic

Active Member
BLL would work. Works with subsonic 7.62x39 loads using a .308" groove barrel and Sierra 220 SMKs
I agree Ian that it would...

But I want to run a direct comparison of a conventional lube (one of our good ones) A wet/dry test.... Looking for copper fouling removal for one thing. Where you could mix cast and jacketed in the same outing! I guess I could try some "Triple Shock" bullets I have... But I wouldn't buy more anymore AT THE $$$$. I HAVE A cannulure tool but it doesn't hold enough lube... I'll dream up something....

Pete
 

358156 hp

At large, whereabouts unknown.
Hexagonal Boron Nitride is being used by some match & long-range shooters to reduce bore friction. I still haven't gotten to that point yet, but some day I will.
 

Eutectic

Active Member
I've played with hbn a fair amount. both in bullet lubes as well as tumbled an applied to jacketed. you can tell jacketed have lower friction with it. Speer made some good rifle bullets called Deep Curl. They came with hbn applied and even special loading data because of it!!. I shot them first in an old Winchester Model 64 in .25-35! How's that for abstract?? Alas.... they weren't shiny, with a pointed plastic colored tip.... So they didn't catch on in rifle bullets.

Bottom-line? I still saw copper fouling with it..... Maybe some less BUT THERE! So for me the goal is shooting those gilding metal bombs without them rubbing off in the bore! Same thing cupronickel was doing a hundred years ago for Whelen mentioned in threads above...... They only partially fixed copper jacketed, even gilding metal, by running them 'plain'......

So I'm looking for the answer to Lamar's question that started this thread!

Pete
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
okay there is a story behind this question.
I know Pete might be interested because he should be able to try and duplicate what I'm seeing.

as y'all know I swage many of my rifle bullets [22 & 30 cal] those deer I showed were taken with one of my home made bullets.
and I'm pretty much an unofficial salesman for Bergara [and Stag]

here is what prompted the question.
as the final finish on my swaged bullets I use in both my Stag 6-H and in the Bergara 0-6 I roll the bullets in my Pin tumbler [with walnut and corn cob] to remove the swage lube and to apply a coating of NuFinish.

both of these rifles are sub-moa.
mostly 1/2" or better on a day to day and year to year basis, but never ever over 3/4".

I'm over 400 rounds in the Stag without cleaning the barrel and some of them have been 10-12 real quick rounds when shooting ground squirrels.
the Bergara is close to 75 rounds [no break in procedure no cleaning] and I decided to squirt some bore cleaner down it before going down and re-sighting it in after moving the scope back in the rings.

I let the cleaner sit for about 35-40 minutes then patched it out.
all I got was black powder fouling.
I run a couple of oiled patches and got more black and a couple of dry ones in between the wet ones and pulled out some more powder fouling.
no blue in the bore cleaner, no blue on the patches.
these rifles have good barrels of course, but have only seen NuFinish applied bullets since day one with a handful of non coated bullets.

one other trait they share that might be of interest.
the 22 bullets come out at 2235 with a power ring of 224 on the base.
the 30 cal bullets come in at 3075 but I didn't have a power ring cut for these.
both are also plain base.
 

Ian

Notorious member
I'm just talking out my butt here, but I bet just a coat is all that would be needed. I also think it would help to make the jacketed bullets .001" larger than groove diameter to start, and keep the jump to .010" or less. Start with a stripped-clean bore and swab some BLL in it before starting. Give it 50 shots to fill the holes back in and I bet it doesn't copper foul any more.

I can see abrasion fouling happening, but lube tends to help that out a lot and keep it from accumulating when it does happen. But where is the most copper? In the corners of the grooves (trailing edge, where the gas leaks), tops of the lands where the rough drill marks are, and anywhere else there are chatter marks in the bore, right? So we're seeing (presumbably) the effects of gas cutting and abrasion fouling with gilding metal jackets. Seems to me that fixing the leaks with fit and putting a little dynamic film slickum in there would fix both problems. I understand that jacketed bullets tend to "slug up" once engraved due to having no grooves and the displaced jacket material having to go somewhere (grooves), but I still think the jackets are too hard to keep the dynamic seal intact as well as cast bullets do in anything but a perfect barrel. Ever notice how hand-lapped barrels copper-foul a LOT less than cheap production corncob barrels do? I say better bore obturation and less jacket abrasion is the reason. My Rock Creek 5R hand lapped .308 barrel came to me with 400 rounds of jax through it without any cleaning and try as I might, I never got any green on a copper-solvent patch.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Ok Fiver, maybe I'm not out in left field after all. After reading your post and seems that good barrels and a hint of waxy stuff might be all it takes.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
I figured you were typing while I was.:D
anyway there is something to this.
granted these are both very good barrels.
I could compare their accuracy to 2 other real accurate rifles I have, but those ones I know I will get some blue out of them in 20 shots.

the 7x57 ICL Douglas 5R has some small chatter marks near the end of the barrel and it actually shoots better when I see some copper in those marks.
it's throated for 140-145gr bullets.

the BRNO 25-06 has a very nice but unknown maker barrel and is built around 100gr or lighter bullets, it is the one I trust the most for long shots on tiny targets.
they are both easily sub MOA rifles too but...

I'm just thinking I might need to start treating some other bullets and see what I get.
 

Intheshop

Banned
Surface tension on the molecular level and thanks,now my brain hurts....doh.

Or maybe JB's are just a fad?Like that ole bat selling those copper pans on those infomercials.
 

Eutectic

Active Member
I think Ian's comments on barrel 'roughness' are pretty close generally. I think Lamar is like an old hound on the scent of the problem.
I have barrels that copper foul badly that have rifling done badly. I have a couple that look smooth (I don't have a borescope) but will copper foul. I have a .22 Hornet (T/C) that copper fouls but will not brass foul! This 'brass' with .22 Long Rifle jackets.
I keep thinking of all my .38-40 cast bullet testing before my Canada elk hunt. It's old bore has sharp rifling although some neglect {pit areas) probably from 1904 until non-corrosive ammo showed up in the late 20's. Yet it doesn't lead! The roughness still shoots groups WAY beyond what I thought a .38-40 was capable of and the roughness actually seemed to help 'cold starts'!

So enough lube (like the amount on a conventional grooved bullet) applied to a jacketed bullet could help copper fouling?? I agree roughness abrades copper..... Hot and dry attaches it to the bore. Could conventional cast lube create a film to stop this attachment? Flush the abraded jacket material out the muzzle in our atomized 'lube cloud'? I think so...... Just have to test my theories to make them fact.

Pete