how come

[fiver]

well they got that CFE powder now.
I heard through what I would think is a reliable source that the erasing part is some type of lead.
but that got me to thinking some also.
Winchester primers use lead styphnate and we know how hard their residue is to clean up.
so that can't be it,,,, or could it?
you would want something 'flammable'.. check
something just hard enough to work on scraping the copper out... check
and it seems to be working from the throat forward in the rifles guys are trying it in.


so a coating of some sort to the bullet I believe could help.
I have been pondering trying to coat a jacketed bullet with powder coating.
I have even been working on a solution to totally remove swaging lube to make that happen.
and I have no problem shooting an over sized bullet.
but I digress.
I am thinking the polymer coating and the slight undersize is what is doing the work here.
the copper isn't being jammed against the barrel and where it makes contact it has a barrier.
granted this is a pretty fragile system but it only has to work for micro seconds.

I wonder if a single coat of Hi-Tek wouldn't be a better option.
airc it's a cross linked polymer which would make it a cousin to the NuFinish.
GAAA why do I think about this stuff?

 

[Eutectic]

Hummmmm?? Isn't lead in our cast bullets?

I have removed copper fouling shooting cast bullets over it. It isn't an all the time thing however!

I know a guy (retired) that knows a lot of folks in the gun/reloading game.... Even CEO types that could get the eraser for us. I'll give him a call.

He might get past the "proprietary" information answer for us!

Pete

 

[Ian]

The CFE ingredient wouldn't be lead compounds, no way with all the EPA hoopla that they'd do that. Now zinc or tin would do the same thing and be more Gore friendly...

Hasn't DuPont been putting tin dioxide in rifle powder since Job was a pup?

Internet discussion brings up bismuth dioxide with regard to CFE, which amalgamates with the copper particles and keeps them from sticking. Anecdotal comments reveal a barrel which copper fouls severely fouls less with copper and more with carbon, but leaves brass-colored metal fouling at the muzzle, indicating some sort of amalgamation is happening.

I'm betting it's a combination of extra carbon mess (ballistic stop-leak behind the bullet and anti-stick coating all in one??) and some sort of amalgamation process which binds with the copper dust and lets most of it get blown out of the muzzle.

 

[fiver]

bismuth would be acceptable.
I know antimony is umm treated more like a poison than lead is in many circles.

whatever they are using would most likely have to be accepted by the European equivalent of our EPA, which is about as strict as a POW commandant,,, only with more power.
I seriously doubt it is just a by-product of a base ingredient change, since it was pretty much put together for military rifle usage.
however it wouldn't be the first time a change was noted or made mandatory then a secondary effect was noted by the lab and finally exploited by the advertising department.

 

[Ian]

Yup, treat depression, shingles, and rhumatoid arthritis all with the same pill, depending on which Dept. of Marketing Wank gets the job. Tin compounds have been in powder since WWI as a CFE ingredient, but few people knew until Enduron's CFE side-effects were being pitched to a very curmudgeoney and disinterested nation of handloaders.

 

[freebullet]

If you want to see copper fouling run 1k plated at 1100+. Its neat.

 

[fiver]

I managed to get away with running plated 311 rifle bullets in my 308 with 35 grs of 4895.
I started at something like 28 grs when Littlegirl was about 8 or so and just kept on moving up and up as we went.
at 35 grs I was seriously considering using the load as is as a deer hunting load.
I think I got away with it because of the oversize diameter, the copper had nowhere to go but down the barrel.
I guess not knowing I couldn't do it didn't stop me.

 

[Brad]

Copper isn't always a bad thing. I recall reading a story about a match shot backwards, 600 first then 300 and 200. A guy shot worse than usual at 600 and attributed it to his bore being too clean. The rounds fired at 200 and 300 laid down copper in the fine cracks in the throats so the 600 yard bullets went down a slightly smoother bore. In this case that fouling wasn't present and a price was paid in group size.

 

[Pistolero]

On original question....lube grooves too small, lube sucks.

Bill

 

[fiver]

Bill.
the original question was about why we get metal fouling, and why we don't.
how many of us have lead only guns that haven't seen a patch or brush since the 90's?
they have seen thousands of rounds with no maintenance of the barrel required.

the follow up was to mention that I have 2 rifles I swage jacketed bullets for that I have not cleaned.
one is over 450 rounds and still shoots 1/2 groups.
the other [my Bergara 30-06] I decided to patch out the other day and got no blue on the patches but did keep getting powder fouling. [it is easily capable of 1/2" groups if I pay attention] and had about 75 rds through it at the time [it's around 90 now]
both are from a brand new state with no break in procedure, and hove mostly seen just my home swaged bullets through them.

 

[Pistolero]

Fiver --- I was mostly kidding. I do not clean my Jbullet rifles all that often, seems
like a small amount of copper is fine. When I clean thoroughly I shoot at least 5 rounds,
preferably more before I do anything serious.

I haven't cleaned the bores of my various cast bullet handguns for many years, once
I learned how to do cast bullets correctly. Seems like no need. Rifles, I get a grey
wash, doesn't seem to hurt.

Bill

 

[fiver]

that's pretty normal.
I'm looking at maybe the polymer I'm applying to the bullets these 2 rifles see almost exclusively as the reason why I'm not seeing any copper in them.
they do have outstanding barrels.
if there is a barrier there.
I think I might be able to keep some of the rifles I do see copper in clean or at least cleaner for a longer period of time.

I just need to decide on a rifle and then scrub it down and test my theory.
one of my K-31's is mollyd up [bubba'd and scoped too] but the other one is doing pretty much nothing.
I have a shoe box of 308 brass all prepped and primed and the Ruger hasn't done much since the RPM/Lube testing.
I got the Stevens 30-30 which needs scrubbed and a load worked for it anyway.

 

[Pistolero]

So is the NuFinish doing the job on lubing the swaged bullets? Slick polymer "wax"
might be the magic elixir, jbullet lube.

We had a part at work which was somewhat similar, a piston driven through
a bore with a small powder charge. SS parts. It had been made by another govt
supplier for decades, no problems. We took over production after that supplier closed.
Built to exact specs, exact materials, we even brought in some folks that had worked
the line there before they closed, it was a crucial part. But, our testing required a
measured force to push the piston thru it's travel (interference at the rear, sealing
skirt). Our parts had twice the allowable force.....no good. I did some serious
simulation work, showed that the force should be about the spec level with a certain
friction coefficient, but we clearly weren't getting that friction coefficient. But why not?


We ran in circles on this for a couple of months. EVERYTHING was checked and
double checked, it was exactly the same as the old production part. Finally we went
through a careful look at EVERY SINGLE STEP of the whole make/assemble process, and the only
thing different was that they bagged the pistons in polyethylene bags before they
were shipped to the assembly dept. May have sat for a few weeks before being
assembled, moved a few times. We put the pistons into poly bags, shook them
around a while and VOILA! the problem was solved. The traces of polyethylene
wiped from the bags was lubing the pistons. Damn, we had no idea that this was
a key part of the production process.

So... NuFinish could be doing the job, IMO, it is at least possible.

Bill

 

[fiver]

wow.
who would ever think that a baggie would give up the propylene.
I mean in the original build, how would they even spec that.
I can just see the engineer trying to explain that in the meeting.
well we ugh we umm okay we are gonna build this super spec part...
now we aren't gonna lubricate it with silicone or ptfe or any type of oil,,, what we are gonna do it shake it around in a plastic bag from the dollar store.
the office bosses all turn and look at each other...finally one speaks.
umm you do know this is a 5 million dollar account?

 

[Pistolero]

Yeah, the original maker made cylinders and pistons bagged them and put into a tote tray.
Move to the next department, build units up when needed. So, each piston got put in a bag
and they knew they worked, but not a clue that the bagging process was a critical part of the build
to get a part that would work. It was just how you kept them clean in storage and transport.

By the time we figured it out, everybody involved knew how long we had chased this, so mostly
just shook our heads and filed that as possible thing to check in the future when friction coefficient
isn't what you expected. Management was happy as hell when we told them we had it figured out.

This was part of a very expensive weapon system, and we were so happy to be able to make them again
that all was happy, happy. $5 million would be way less than the whole weapon cost. This part was
way less than that, but had to be there.

In any case - is NuFinish lubing your swaged bullets? Do we need to see what happens if we tumble
factory jbullets in NuFinish on pins or on corncob? I use it on brass, makes if feel smooth and slick.

Bill

 

[fiver]

I believe the nufinish is what is helping here.
I'm going to explore this more, and I'm really looking at trying a coat of Hi--Tek on some.
I believe a wash in laundry detergent will clean any oils or whatever off the bullets, then a coat of Hi-Tek or a tumble In the NuFinish will show if this works for sure or not.
the other 2 rifles are just observations made over time but are what is prompting me getting more stuff put together to give this a full test.
I have a line on a dish washer that I think still works so I'm going to go fetch it and see if it powers up.
if so a good hot water and soap wash will be implemented.

for all I know [shrug] I might lose or gain accuracy, maybe keep fouling down, maybe increase powder fouling.
I just don't know.

 

[Pistolero]

An experiment worth doing, but I put the HiTek and NuFinish in entirely different categories,
at least in build thickness. I wonder if you can even measure the NuFinish thicknesss, and you
can certainly measure the HiTek thickness.

Bill

 

[fiver]

I'm sure the Hi-Tek is gonna be a little thicker.
I have been getting a pretty consistent .001 with the powder coat I'm doing on naked lead which gives .002 in total diameter increase.
that's one of the reasons I'm working on the complete wash and de-grease.
I want to try powder coating some jacketed bullets at some point.
the 3075 plus .002 gets me under the .310 throat leade diameter.
I'm just wondering if I am gong to have to roll some cannelures in the body to handle the jacket flow.
but if I can get the powder on a 308 bullet [and it takes] then I have a couple of 311-312 barreled rifles that could really make use of the P.C. and a trip into the 3115 swage die.
I would love to be able to shoot a 150-165gr bullet at 2650-2700 fps but not do any damage to the jacket or core.
that just opens a new world to terminal performance.


the funny thing is I have some cast bullets I coated with nufinish some time back but I have been scared to shoot them, then it dawned on me I have already been shooting nufinish coated bullets.

 

[Ian]

Conversations like this is why I love this site.

 

[Pistolero]

NuFinish for cast sounds interesting as heck. That is an experiment worth running, too.
How did you apply it? With the SS pins? I wonder if my corncob with NuFinish that I
use for brass will work for bullets? Worth a try.

How about put 10 bullets into a poly bag, dump into the tumbler with corncob
and tumble for 15 minutes? That might be interesting, too. I am certain (now)
that it will rub some onto the surfaces and that it does modify the friction coefficient
under substantial interference fit and significant velocity, but different metals
entirely.

Pure guess, but I would be surprised if the NuFinish was thicker than .0001 on
a jbullet. But, only the mic will tell the tale, for sure.

Bill