How much is enough?

[waco]

So I got a new NOE 312299 4 cavity mold about a month ago. 2pb 2gc
I melted down some boat anchors that I was pretty sure was WW alloy(found a few clips floating in the mix)
They made nice ingots. I added roughly 1% sn to the 20lbs of ingots I put in the RCBS Pro Melt.

Today makes right at a month my bullets have been ageing. These are air cooled btw. Using my Staedtler art pencils, I'm getting right at 14-15bhn. Good. This is my question and I think I might have an idea of what some of you will tell me. Test, test, test....okay.

How much lube is needed for, lets say, 2000fps with this 209gr bullet from a .308 with 31gr of Varget?
For the firs 20 I loaded I sized them to .311" with a GC and used all of the lube grooves.

Depending on how these shoot, I might try leaving the top groove empty on the next go around.
Is there a hard and fast rule you guys use or does it just depend on the individual rifle, bullet, lube, load, ect....?

I think I know the answer...But I'll ask anyway!

 

[waco]

If it matters, and I'm sure it does, these are lubed with mainly Glen's Black. Some 2500+ is still mixed in a bit.

 

[Brad]

I would say it depends.
If the load shoots well then I wouldn't mess with it. With a good lube it shouldn't matter much.
How many grooves to fill also depends on the grooves themselves. Lee uses some awful shallow grooves so I tend to fill them all. NOE grooves can be shallow too so I think you will be just fine.

 

[waco]

Yeah. Looking at these they are pretty shallow. Hope to shoot these soon.

 

[fiver]

it depends on the oil content of the lube.[and the ambient temperature]

I'd go with what you have there to start with.
a good rule of thumb is .2 to .25grs of lube on normal [22-35 cal.] rifle bullets.

 

[Ian]

It also depends on the wax base and how quickly it shears under pressure. Glen's Black has the adhesive and cohesive properties of beeswax and the added sticky/cohesiveness of the Paratac (polybutene) stickifier in the grease, so it will hang on at launch pretty well and not go liquid immediately in comfortable weather/slow fire. It also has a huge load of oil held together by only about 7% lithium soap base and the beeswax itself. Get it really hot and it can start washing out before the bullet corks up the barrel at the throat.

The sooner the bullet seals the barrel up at launch, the less lube you need to put on the bullet. If the bullet alloy and powder match each other well enough that you don't get a bad relax point near the muzzle end, your lands and grooves are true and uniform, there are no tight places in the barrel, or if you use a buffer (or even Dacron in some instances), the less lube you need.

Short version, I'd run what you have but don't call it "done" until you've tested in max hot/cold conditions for your area and gotten the barrel too hot to hold your hand on at least once while shooting a group. If you see lube boogers on your 100-yard paper targets, cut the lube out of the top groove.

 

[waco]

Awesome advice guys. Thanks. Lots of testing in order.
I'm looking forward to trying different loads with this Bullet.

 

[Ian]

I think Fiver runs that 165 grainer at blistering speeds with just about no lube groove to fill and only a tiny little space above the check. I've run quite a few .30 calibers at 18-1900 fps (before I figured out that there was more to life than what the manuals published for cast bullet loads) with just the space above the gas check lubed and found the best accuracy doing so, but I was using more viscous lubes at the time than I do now. These days I generally fill everything except the crimp groove with a heavily-fortified, soft lube, having learned that if I have lube-related problems it's a better solution to modify the lube itself rather than the quantity applied to the bullet. Glen has published a few pictures of his lubed bullets that get pushed well over 2K fps and IIRC he tends to fill up whatever is there, and I suspect he knows something about what works with his recipe

 

[fiver]

I use the single lube groove style in the 165 and push it real hard in the 10 twist 308.
I'm also using a 30" barrel, and a 20" barrel.
my lube is a looong way from a normal lithi-bee which absolutely let me down when the temps got over about 85-88f, and that was with about 11-12% stearate not a regular 5-7% grease.

I'm still using the big batch of the complex moly and the second batch mixed together in anything I push hard.
it has a list of ingredients about 3" long but almost 0% stearate since the oils mainly come from white lithium assembly grease near the 25% level instead of a number-2 or 3 at 50%.

 

[waco]

So this is where this bullet hits the lands. I'm guessing the .302"+ nose it too big.
What do I do to this alloy to dumb it down a bit? Or do I just size the nose?
I was using the Hornady OAL gauge.

 

[fiver]

all you can add is more plain lead.

 

[waco]

I might just try this first 20 loaded at this length.
That's the one this I'm super short on. Pure....

 

[Ian]

Or buy an Accurate mold that actually casts the size it's supposed to with wheel weights

You can dumb it down with 50% pure lead, don't add any more tin, and heat treat them back up to 15 bhn after a long age, and cast from a cooler mould very slowly with very hot alloy, but even with all that you may still only knock .001" off of the nose diameter.

Just run what ya brung and let the target and rifle tell you if you need to change anything, you might just be pleasantly surprised.

 

[waco]

I suppose I could add some of that .22 alloy. Not quite dead soft but a few bhn below that boat anchor material....

 

[waco]

Or buy an Accurate mold that actually casts the size it's supposed to with wheel weights

Nobody likes a wise ass Ian.....

 

[fiver]

well we bitch when they are too big, we cuss when they are too small.
if we buy a mold specifically for the rifle we sell the rifle... then bitch about that too.

 

[Brad]

well we bitch when they are too big, we cuss when they are too small.
if we buy a mold specifically for the rifle we sell the rifle... then bitch about that too.

Like Tonto once said "What do you me we, white man?"

 

[Ian]

It isn't like I haven't mentioned the chronic .002" oversized bore rider characteristics of a lot of NOE moulds before. I don't do it to pick on Al, I do it so people have an idea of what they're getting into and don't have to spend hundreds of dollars to find out the hard way like a lot of people did that the mould they bought based on a CAD drawing won't actually fit their late-model, on-spec, not shot out rifle. There are a lot of rifles out there being shot by cast bulleteers that NEED a fat nose to shoot well, but I maintain that a mould should cast as advertised, with the alloy advertised, period. This is the 21st century of fabulous, custom CNC-machined moulds (either lathe cut or cut with cherries on CNC mills with orbital capability for precision diameter control), and if Tom can hit the nail on the head every time, with not two but THREE different mould block materials and any alloy you can dream up, and Miha can do it right on with brass, half a world away using the system of measuring that was NOT used to put men on the moon, why is it still such a mystery for some? Even Lee gets it right a lot of the time based on wheel weights/pinch of tin, and they don't even spec an alloy to use.

The only thing I bitch about is not getting what I pay for (at least within a thousandth, I figure I'm expected to control the other variables by adjusting technique to the particular mould's liking), and now that several companies have set the standards, there's no longer any excuse for a custom or small-run bullet mould maker to not be able to deliver that.

 

[waco]

I'm just messing with him. I'll try these "as is"
I'll fool with the alloy a bit if I need to.
My 312290 seats a bit below the neck as well. Still get decent groups. I'll play around with it.
Still have another .308, a 300blk, and an '06 to try it in.....

 

[Ian]

Like Tonto once said "What do you me we, white man?"

Yeah yeah, I still have mine, too. Tucked way in a dark place until I get a .337"-necked '06 reamer.....