is the 9mm gonna be the death of the 40 short?

[Bret4207]

I say carry what you want and be happy. But lets not pretend that it's 1990 again and that LE agencies are running to the 9mm from something else. That era came and went. Some may go to the 9mm from a revolver or maybe from one platform to another because of quality or training issues (SA vs DA perhaps) but it's not the mass jump that occurred in the late 80's early 90's. No doubt in my mind you'll find more 9mm brass ona range than 40S+W or even 45. It's cheap. But you're gonna find a lot more 7.62x39 brass (steel actually) at the range around here than anything else. Why? It's cheap. Cheap doesn't necessarily mean better. Lotsa shots sprayed in the general area of the BG doens't mean better either. I've killed coyotes with a 380 and 22 short, raccoons with a 25 Auto ( not easily!) and put down cattle and horses with all sorts of stuff. Hotter works better if the bullet is good. Hotter doesn't work better if the bullet fails.

Shoot what you want. Be happy!

 

[Eutectic]

Some have done amazing things while being hopelessly under gunned.....Look at what this old Eskimo woman did out of necessity with only a .22 Long Singleshot! That's a .22 Long with the 29 grain bullet!
https://www.ammoland.com/2017/06/be...-world-record-grizzly-and-more/#axzz4jcYjySEC

Pete

 

[Hawk]

Hawk, load a Lyman 358156 out to the 2nd crimp groove and stoke it with 13.5 2400.

Lyman Manual, 49th Addition, Lists the max load of 8.3 gr. of 2400 with the 358156 at 867 FPS and a +P load with 8.8 gr. for 953 FPS. Probably loaded to an OAL in the upper crimp groove, not the lower, as you stated.
It also lists 14.0 gr of 2400 at 1299 FPS with the 358156 as the max load for the .357 Mag. Pressure for this load is 41,900 C.U.P
I've gone over book on charges before, but never by 53%.
Basically, your loading to .357 Mag levels in a .38 SPL. Seems to
I'm intrigued. Since I have that mold and 4 lbs. of 2400, I may try to step up from about 8.0 grains and see what happens.
Are you shooting this in a .38 SPL revolver or in a .358 Mag gun?
I'll bet it will take a S&W Model 36 or 60 with standard grips right out of your hand.

 

[Brad]

I bet it was 38 cases in a 357 revolver.

 

[KeithB]

IIRC this load was developed for people who wanted .357 Mag loads using .38 Spcl brass at a time when .357 Mag brass was far more scarce than it is now. It was intended to shoot in .357 Mag guns. I always considered the practice of loading special cartridges to magnum pressure levels as unsafe, too much chance of shooting it in the wrong gun.

Your gun, your loads, your outcome.

 

[Eutectic]

Elmer Keith listed 13.5 grs of 2400 even behind his 173gr bullet.... BUT........ He referred to them as .38-44 loads.... only for the .38-44 Outdoorman (Model 23) Smith.... A big, strong "N" frame gun. I believe he also said it could be used in the late Colt SAA .38 Special.

Elmer's thinking here started before the .357 showed up in the '30's.

Pete

 

[Ian]

I don't think my Model 36 cylinder will accept a bullet with a .390" nose. My K-38 will, barely.

 

[Bret4207]

Lyman Manual, 49th Addition, Lists the max load of 8.3 gr. of 2400 with the 358156 at 867 FPS and a +P load with 8.8 gr. for 953 FPS. Probably loaded to an OAL in the upper crimp groove, not the lower, as you stated.
It also lists 14.0 gr of 2400 at 1299 FPS with the 358156 as the max load for the .357 Mag. Pressure for this load is 41,900 C.U.P
I've gone over book on charges before, but never by 53%.
Basically, your loading to .357 Mag levels in a .38 SPL. Seems to
I'm intrigued. Since I have that mold and 4 lbs. of 2400, I may try to step up from about 8.0 grains and see what happens.
Are you shooting this in a .38 SPL revolver or in a .358 Mag gun?
I'll bet it will take a S&W Model 36 or 60 with standard grips right out of your hand.

What the manuals of 2018 say and what the manuals of 1974 or 84 or 94 said are different things. The load referenced was the standard old "Skeeter" load of Skeeter Skelton fame IIRC. (Could be it was 12.5, but 13.5 seems right) As I said, shot out of a large, medium or some small frame revolvers it will give impressive results. I (foolishly) used this load in a Colt Cobra back in the day a few times. Too much for that platform IMO. The point is that the 357 was developed from the 38 and you can still get 357 mag (standard) performance from a 38. I don't know if the pressure in those loads is running below, at or above 9mm standard pressure. But I do know the 38 spec is rather underloaded in factory ammo today, just as so many other older rounds are. Just as there are 9mm platforms you wouldn't be advised to run the +P+ stuff in, the same goes for 38's. When you compare apples to apples the 38 and 9mm haven't got a whiskers worth of real world difference. Just my opinion, take it or leave it.

 

[fiver]

I have used the exact same load in the 38 case and the 9mm case a number of times.
only one has 18K of pressure and a 160gr bullet, the other is at 35-K of pressure with a 125.

I have been impressed a couple of times at just how much penetration you can get from a light loaded 158gr bullet.
I once punched down through a cows skull 16" into it's neck with a 358477 on top of 4grs of 231.
it just worked it's way down through everything with minimal tissue damage.
the animal would have just wandered away until another shot was used.
I'm sure a brain shot would have put the animal down.

just 2 years back littlegirl put a heart shot on a deer and it done the classic kick jump then sort of made a u-turn to start back down the hill.
I told her to shoot it again, she was pretty positive it was a good shot [so was I but it was still moving]
she took another shot into the off side shoulder and it went down.
when we went to clean the deer it was plain as day that the first shot had just took a slice out of the side of the heart.
that wound would have healed in time.
1" higher or to the side and it would have been the shot she expected it to be.

in either case neither outcome would have been change by more diameter or weight.

 

[USSR]

Have shot several deer with the .357 Magnum, and was never really impressed. Seemed to work okay with the classic thru-the-rib-cage shot, but just okay. One year I was in my tree stand when I heard another hunter nearby take a shot. A doe came limping up towards my tree and laid down pretty much under it. I decided to do the hunter a favor and dispatch his deer for him with my S&W Model 686 with 145gr SilverTips. Since I was above the deer, I aimed at her back above the chest. At my shot, the deer got up and took off. I was astounded. This was the morning, and in the afternoon I went back to the same general area to hunt. I was on the ground this time, and a deer came limping along towards me. I shot it with my shotgun (Western NY was a non-rifle deer hunting area at the time), and sure enough, it was the same deer I shot that morning. When dressing out the deer, I found a nicely expanded .357 slug nestled in the heavy suet layer above the rib cage. It hit no bone and was stopped by the hide and suet layer. I quit taking my .357 Magnum deer hunting after that and bought myself a Model 25-5 in .45 Colt. When I shoot a deer with that, there is complete penetration and the deer goes down like a ton of bricks.

Don

 

[RicinYakima]

I

 

[Bret4207]

I have used the exact same load in the 38 case and the 9mm case a number of times.
only one has 18K of pressure and a 160gr bullet, the other is at 35-K of pressure with a 125.

Pressure is the key, isn't it? You CAN load a 38 Spec to the 357's press (35K IIRC) and get 357 performance. You can also up the 6.5x55's 45K to 50K+ in a modern action, or the 45-70's SAAMI standard which I think is down around 25K up a bunch and certainly equal the 444 Marlin or more. It's all in what you want to do and what you're doing it with. I'm not recommending anyone try and take that lovely old Police Positive 38 Spec and run it a 35K. I'm saying that there are limits from factories (and lawyers no doubt) that hamstring some cartridges.

The 9mm has come a long way in the last 20 years. Why? Because it failed dismally and very publicly a number of times. I'm personally glad to see the much better ammo the 9mm groupies have today. Good for you! Have at it boys. But the 9 isn't going to "kill off" anything anymore than the various 30 cal magnums, short magnums, super short magnums, TACTICAL magnums, etc have killed off the 30-30, 308 or 30-06. What kills off cartridges is a lack of platforms to use them in being popular. Anyone recall the 9mm Federal? The 41AE? The 7mm Shooting Times Easterner/Westerner? 8mm Rem Mag? 400 CorBon? 45 Super? Heck, how many 38 Supers do you see today and it's nothing put an overgrown 9mm. There ara a gazillion 9's out there. That will keep it going. Lots of 40's and 45's and 380s and what not too. Not a lot of 401 Herters Powermags or 8mm Nambus though.

It's all opinion and speculation in the end, with a fair amount of rhetoric and hyperbole thrown into the mix! People like what they like. I like a lot of stuff other people find absolutely useless. I'm okay with that and hope everyone else is too. If a 9 makes you happy, good on you! If it takes something starting with a 4 and ending with a number over 3, glad to hear it. If that little Black Widow 22 mag in you pocket makes you feel safe enough, I understand completely and wish you the best. In the end, if psh comes to shove the gun I want in a life and death battle sits on the USS Missouri and I plan on being 20+ miles away when I lob a ton of HE the BG's way!

 

[freebullet]

I have shot a LOT of car struck deer. 99.9% were head shots. I have had the sub sonic 9mm 147 FBI load fail to even penetrate the frontal plate of the skull. I've had the Gold Dot 124+P+ slide along the skull under the skin, but only once or twice. We had a female Trooper who used body shots (couldn't "look Bambi in the eye and shoot her!"). She regularly used 8-10 rounds of 9mm to drop a deer and then it layed there flopping around on the side of the road. I have never seen a through and through body shot with a 9mm handgun of any persuasion on body shots and rarely on frontal head shots. Not saying it doesn't happen, just I've rarely seen it in 150-175 deer I personally shot with a 9mm.

With the 147 I can believe that. In my opinion that is a miss application of the cartridge. Between the eyes of a deer is heavily slanted bone. A better & more successful application would be in or right behind the ear.

Never been a fan of gold dots, prefer a not so rounded nose design. Would only use those broadside or behind the ear. Were I going to shoot a deer in the face with a 9 I would want a wide flat nose at +p+ velocity & I'd try to square the firing angle with the target angle.

8-10 shots? I've never been able to get the second of a controlled pair in one with a 9. They always drop on the first shot, always. I'd be quite shocked to see a deer...any deer standing let alone still after 2 well placed shots. I would anticipate it dropping or running, not standing there.

The first shot from the 380 passed completely through, the second left the empty jacket cup in the exit side hide. Still have the jacket cup around here somewhere. Both were broadside vital shots & the deer dropped on the second.

My sampling is thankfully much smaller, but I'm quite confident that with proper application your results could be better.

 

[Pistolero]

USSR, that was the bullet, not the cartridge on that deer.

You needed a Keith 173 gr SWC at about 1350 fps, easily done.

Bill

 

[Bret4207]

8-10 shots? I've never been able to get the second of a controlled pair in one with a 9. They always drop on the first shot, always. I'd be quite shocked to see a deer...any deer standing let alone still after 2 well placed shots. I would anticipate it dropping or running, not standing there.

.

The deer were all car struck, standing on 3 legs with their entrails hanging put, dragging their hindquarters, down the ground dragging themselves, whatever. Their adrenalin is pumping like crazy and they don't look away or hold still to allow precise shot placement. She would shoot until they stopped flopping around. Not my style, but no one every said much about anything females on our job did.

We used what we were issued. Get caught with anything else in a mag and you lost a couple weeks pay and maybe got transfered.

 

[Bret4207]

USSR, that was the bullet, not the cartridge on that deer.

You needed a Keith 173 gr SWC at about 1350 fps, easily done.

Bill

I agree, or even 1200 fps.

 

[USSR]

True, but makes you wonder about a bullet that is highly touted as a SD round. Still feel the .357 Magnum is a marginal deer cartridge in a handgun.

Don

 

[Bret4207]

People aren't deer. They react differently. Plus, over penetration has been a big thing for decades. How much stock you put in it is up to you. The modern theory is that any energy not "dumped" into the target is wasted. If the bullet goes beyond the target and hits something/someone else that's supposed to be instant incarceration for the shooter. As with the "never carry handloads for self defense or you'll be bubbas girlfriend in an 8x10 foot cell till you die" adage, how much truth there actually is in it is open to speculation. Facts often tend to confuse the discussion even further.

 

[fiver]

not a fan of the 110-125 hp type stuff in the 357.
I have tried it on a few cow and pig type targets and the rest got shot on paper for the brass right quick afterwards.
I'm sure it was a bullet design issue as much as a velocity thing.
but over the years I have come to trust 2 holes much more than a fancy opening hollow point in any caliber.

 

[USSR]

The modern theory is that any energy not "dumped" into the target is wasted. If the bullet goes beyond the target and hits something/someone else that's supposed to be instant incarceration for the shooter.

Ha! That "modern theory" of a bullet that stops in it's target having "dumped" all it's energy is one of the biggest misconceptions in ballistics. There is no mystical "energy". It is nothing more than a mathematical formula. What stops the target from doing whatever it is doing is the destruction of tissue causing a disruption of blood flow, resulting in a massive drop in blood pressure (this assumes a soft tissue hit and not a bone breaking hit). In addition to a shallower wound by a bullet that stops in the target (less tissue destruction) as opposed to a shot with an exit wound, the shot with the exit wound also lowers blood pressure by promoting increased blood flow exiting the body. There is a reason why the FBI specifies a level of penetration in addition to expansion. Personally, I count a load that fails to provide an exit wound as a failure, unless it hits bone. I'll take my chances in court, as I have yet to be shown anyone convicted based on his ammo on what was decided to be a justified shoot.

Don