Just how much authority is needed to kill stuff

RBHarter

West Central AR
I'd like to tie this together with this , http://www.artfulbullet.com/index.p...p-of-bhn-velocity-and-expansion-with-cast.46/ .

With that done implores the question just how much energy (or whatever number base you choose to use) is needed to kill a critter . To me it is obvious that a 55 gr TNT HP 22 cal at 3500 fps will most certainly convert a pack or kangaroo rat to a chunky mist anywhere inside 300yd . A similar thing happens with a 115 gr 25 cal Sierra HP at 3400 fps to jackrabbits on out to at least 400 yd . I don't even want to look a the assorted burrowing squirrels as they are oz to 10# . What mistifies the digger the size of a pack of Virginia Slim's might only knock a chunk off the ol' shadow seeker .

We know or at least should know if we are reading this that how a bullet functions at impact has a giant impact on its terminal effect . We should know the if a 50 pointy bullet "pencils" through between the lungs and liver there is a high probability that a pigmy goat will survive the hit while a 400# deer with 25-35 hole just above its elbow behind the shoulder will go 100 yd and lay down and die .
I would never advocate either of the above but they work right ? With the 750 gr BMG you got your 2 holes in the goat and even at 1000yd it's carrying way over the "minimum" 1000# .

This discussion should be fixed on what we really need if for the sake of agreement we have a caliber hole in and out and 25% of the tissue in the chest cavity of an ideal broadside hit is disrupted . The end game is the same with the 1000ftlb goal whether it is arrived at with a partition style double dia 22 or a 300 grain 45 cal wadcutters .

I sight the 1000# rule because that is what is required for big game by letter of the regulations here in Nevada for rifles . They must be center-fire , 22 cal and have 1000 ft-lb @ 100 yd .

It has become obvious that much less than that is required with proper placement even on really hard to kill things . Millions of deer have fallen to as little as 35# , American Bison too . I would imagine even moose have fallen to the lowly long bow ,not the hopped up string rifles but a rock and a stick and twisted sinew . I'd also bet Hiawatha had a pretty good idea that if the pointed stick poked a hole that sprayed blood instead of oozing the animal quit running sooner .

The real question is how much does it take to reliably poke that hole and do the damage needed to make the critter stop running in a timely manner. I've killed 5 pigs of a semi wild type in a sort of wild environment . I've seen them take some brutal hits from massive energy / penetrative cartridges and keep going shock alone should have done the deed but it didn't . I've seen them just fold up with a solid but honestly marginal hit . At 17 nominal steps with a shot in an inch or below the spine exiting at the off elbow . It continued to run 200+ yr . Later that afternoon another grazing along with a lower but similar hit through and through at 47 steps it went 6 steps if you count all 4 hooves before falling dead . The 3rd just a few minutes later took a full on just inside the right shoulder and cutting the left ham dropped on its honches and fell over very dead at a range I will identify as powder burned . According to my handy phone app that 45 Colts load had a whopping 525-580 ft-lb at 1000 fps on 2/3 the last suffered a 625 # hit. When we butchered I found a fish hooked 30 cal bullet in a shoulder all healed up .
On the same trip an inexperienced shooter landed a good hit with a bad bullet choice. While it was a lethal hit it wasn't instant nor clean and required a follow up .

Based on a compilation of some 20+ hogs from 60-200 lbs I can safely say that 525 ft-lb delivered via a 45 cal hole is enough .
Death is pretty fast with high-speed meat wreckers as well a 26 cal with an expanding bullet delivered some 2200 ft-lb with a caliber sized entry and eyeball guess 20 calibers exit . Lots of wasted energy . Lots of margin for error . 1 hog taken with that rifle was shot quartering away with a face exit only a dime sized hole . All of the bullet used up . Several were taken with 30s and expanding bullets I don't have numbers for those but they were 308/06' class cartridges . All delivered expected results except 1 which just baffles me because CNS disruption should have occurred from both shots . 2000+ # up ended a 160# hog and caused it to stagger with no exit . The low head hits left both bullets spent in the chest cavity but without enough to finish the job .

Based on this one might conclude that modern post 1965 cartridges just aren't very good for killing hogs . They simply offer too much of a good thing .

I don't even know what the point was that I was after .
Maybe it is that how the terminal energy is delivered is more important than how much . Maybe it is that failure can occur even when it's in the right place and there is enough to do the job . I wonder if I'm trying to tell myself something . Which often happens when I dive into something like this .
Soon my whole hunting strategy will be turned upside down . The 200 yd zero for a 300 yd minimal hold over will be wasted and result in over shot game . So if it will hit to sights at 100 it should do good enough .

I guess a terminal energy discussion is useless without a bullet shape/performance discussion ..........
 

Chris

Well-Known Member
There sure are a lot of variables, RB. I've been a successful hunter and have also seen killed and handles hundreds of heads of deer and boar... I was a forestry apprentice in Germany where we would kill 40 or so a day in season, just about a slaughter. I know I have given this a lot of thought over time and have never been able to nail down your question except to draw some practical conslusions.

I suspect that terminal energy is less important than we figure but nonetheless relevant. Why does a large bore pistol round at reasonable velocity and proper bullets kill as well as the same in a higher velocity carbine?

I think bullet construction and the way it performs in tissue/bone is very important. I subscribe to the idea that there is a temporay and then permanent wound cavity. However no two shots can ever be the same so we need to generalize.

I think an important variable is the mental/physical state of the animal. A calm, feeding critter can often be dumped instantly, one that is tense is a whole 'nother critter. Let alone one that is mortally wounded but clinging to life.

Now consider that animal species vary in toughness... wild boar and bear are just plain tough and you got to step up the killing force however you figure it. Small deer are easier than large deer for sure. So consider the killing power based on toughness classification and body weight.

No way I can begin to address this, not sure anyone can analyze it perfectly. However my general conclusion is that well constructed larger caliber bullets at modest velocities kill well enough and often very quickly. The key being step up the bullet diameter. A .358 Win using 225 or 250 at 2200-2400 kills better than it should, for example. A .35 Rem with 200's kills better than a .30-30, just does. Now take either of those .358 bullets and raise the velocity to 2800 fps and I doubt you will kill better and it may get worse... but let's let some others in on this too.
 

Ian

Notorious member
The U.S. Army decided way back that if it will penetrate one thickness of 3/4" yellow pine plywood it is good enough to be "lethal" to a man. That's about all I got on the subject.
 

Josh

Well-Known Member
I have killed one or 2 deer with a bullet that pencils through. I was shooting my CZ 527 in 7.62x39 using the cheap 124 gr HP ammo. When I shot the first it acted much like a bow shot would. I persued it for quite some time, approximately 500 yds, shot was upper lungs. I then had to finish her with another shot once she was too sick to run anymore. The 2nd was the next day, this time I shot at almost 300 yds. It hit low this time, behind the heart, she jumped at the shot and ran into the woods. I left her go for 2 hours because I had the light. She went 200 yds and layed down to die.

Neither bullet expanded, I thought the 1st was a fluke. It didn't turn me away from hunting with a non expanding bullet (sub 300 blk loads) you just have to know how to persue the game after shooting it. Hope my ramblings helps in some way.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
I don't have a dog in this fight but would add that first you have to determine where you are going to shoot them, then pick an energy level or other factor. Elmer Keith was a professional guide and wanted a cartridge you could "shoot elk in the ham and penetrate out the front". Jack O'Conner was being guided and wanted to only take "High Lung" shots. They fought for 40 year like a couple of third graders over this.
 
F

freebullet

Guest
Well, if a 22 can kill a deer or shoot through a frozen turkey I'd say it doesn't necessarily take much to kill but, to do so with authority requires authority.
 

Chris

Well-Known Member
I don't have a dog in this fight but would add that first you have to determine where you are going to shoot them, then pick an energy level or other factor. Elmer Keith was a professional guide and wanted a cartridge you could "shoot elk in the ham and penetrate out the front". Jack O'Conner was being guided and wanted to only take "High Lung" shots. They fought for 40 year like a couple of third graders over this.

My life experience puts me solidly in Elmer's camp. Need enough rifle and bullet to rip them at any angle as he and I are not stand hunters and you can't afford to limit your shots to certain angles. O'Connor is too much of a sport to suit me. Remember, for a while Keith was adamant that he wanted his dude hunters to carry a .375 ouch & ouch for that reason.

So back to RB's post, we as hunters must make assumptions. Mine are large game that may hard to kill, angle of shot variable, exit hole is required. Instant death is not necessary, violent incapacitation is important. My observation based on many kills is that large calibers and modest velocities with total penetration kill reliably. Now others kill ok too, so bring forth your theories.
 

Ian

Notorious member
You know, the .45/70 is rarely too much cartridge. Glen wrote something in his .35 Remington article that stuck hard in my mind as an absolute truth (I'll paraphrase): It is more fun to learn how to hunt than to chase decimal points in a ballistics table.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Big difference between what can work and what I consider ideal. While my 45 Colt was enough on the last deer I shot my 45-70 would have sealed the deal faster.

I am a confirmed 2 hole kind of guy. I want reasonable internal carnage but not excessive. Lungs and hearts leak blood quite rapidly when filled with holes.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
So back to Mr. Harter's question, we don't know and don't agree on any kind of mathematical measurement. But we know it when we see it!
 

Ian

Notorious member
I agree fully with Brad.

The thing here is practical "need". All can be well and good with your .270 Winchester at 40 yards rested on the carpeted sill of a solid tower stand when Bambi or Mr. Piggy is lazily munching on a pile of corn and you choose which two of their ear hairs you'll put the bullet between, but when you're freezing, tired, it's near dark, and you're stalking the woods and get only one quick standing quarter shot at a deer walking between trees 75 or 100 yards away, you need something that YOU can use that will deliver the goods reliably in a pie-plate circle and put it down right now with no pain or drama. No 7mm for me. Not even a .30-30 if I can help it.
 

Ian

Notorious member
So back to Mr. Harter's question, we don't know and don't agree on any kind of mathematical measurement. But we know it when we see it!

Perfect description.

Let me ask this: How many of you have been in the field, hunting a certain type of quarry, and when a shot opportunity came you suddenly and desperately wished you had brought a little more gun?
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
This quickly gets to be very similar to the "one shot stopper" arguement for defense guns.
If a guy shot hundreds of deer with cast he MIGHT be able to begin drawing some good conclusions. Just too many variables.

I never shot a deer with my 32-20 even though it was legal in MO. I just never felt like tracking a deer that much. I also knew I wouldn't find much of a blood trail.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Perfect description.

Let me ask this: How many of you have been in the field, hunting a certain type of quarry, and when a shot opportunity came you suddenly and desperately wished you had brought a little more gun?
More important, how often did you wish you had LESS gun? I never did.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
I have looked at a couple of shoulders and wished I had used less velocity.

I'm not a big numbers guy.
I look at the results, and I have a very defined expectation of what I think I should see when I cut into something to see the terminal results of a shot.

it should include 2 holes as my first priority.
it should have radial wound damage throughout the path of the bullet.
the second hole should be larger than the first.

anything less than that and I consider the bullet to have failed.
 

oscarflytyer

Well-Known Member
Recently read in Keith's Sixguns that a 45 Cap and Ball revolver round ball (~.454/~185 grn) in front of ~30 black powder was pretty reliable on deer and such. Now, if you "read" all the ballistics and energy tables, this combo would never work. But the good news is, deer and such can't read! (Or, see Ian's post above)
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
I read volumes about bullets . Energy conversation . Aerodynamics vs hydrodynamics of a figure . But little about what actually is required to impart the damage . There is rarely a consensus about why it works ( and when there is it so far over my head that I nod in agreement with a dull stare and slack jaw while I digest it down to useful terms, as I laugh at myself for not seeing the sq root prime integer explains everything , sarcasm) .
I've actually become quite fond of fat and slow as a means of making meat .

I explored a KO app (I know where to find the math I even have it in a notebook ) I was actually surprised to find that if I fuss with the numbers a 45 Colts carbine treated like a rifle with fast rifle powder and a bullet of the upper reaches of the cartridge will match the 460 S&W ......... Manipulation of numbers . I dont see how a 250 gr 200 fps cartridge can get trumped by a 1100 fps 350gr but the numbers say it does.

I have been under gunned , not by the game but by the range , more than once . I know , get closer , hunt better . Believe or not I learned more about stalking and energy transfer hunting ducks and geese than big game . It seems like everything is overkill on rabbits ........ except a RN 38 ...... A big FP would have probably exploded the test subject .

Measuring dead is always a challenge .

As a last note , Dad was always a speed kills guy , I never cared for the recoil that comes with flat trajectory (says the guy that loads a load that kills honkers stone dead at 50yds ) . It's funny that after so many yr I would come full circle back to the very beginning and shoot the original Magnum revolver cartridge Colts that is compared to Schofield .
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I'm not much of a deer hunter, but I've killed a lot of them and seen a lot killed. No one yet seems to mention where you hit them. That's as important as what you use IMO. I believe the "shoot them in the big part" attitude is part of why we have so many obese coyotes. Joe Average has a vague idea where the heart is, same for the shoulders, a good idea of where the lungs are and almost no clue where the neck is. I have seen a lot of "neck shots" that were throat shots. But Joe Average depends on that NEW! IMPROVED! super sonic meat mangler bullet at 33,975 fps and his 6-49X scope to make up for the fact he has no clue where old shoulder buster hits at 379 yards with a 12-18mph variable crosswind. So he holds for the middle and takes his Hail Mary shot. It works often enough that he actually brings home some meat.

I'd prefer to see our intrepid nimrod do a bit of research rather than get a bigger gun. I can affirm that a 25 cal 100 gr jacketed bullet at 2700ish fps works really good on deer. So does a 6.5 140 at 2800ish. Both fail miserably if you gut shoot them or miss entirely. A 30 cal 185 FP cast will go right through a cows head front to back if you choose the wrong angle and thats a lot more head than a deer will ever offer. But that shot won't necessarily kill the poor old girl, just knock her down and make you wish you aimed better.

IMO, if it's at least 30 cal in cast with a FP or blunt nose shape, moving at least fast enough to get into the middle of the cross section of your quarry (deer sized) and you hit them in the vitals or break the shoulders, you bring home the meat. If it's through and through you do less tracking. Smaller calibers can work but require a better shot placement. Expansion, IME, is iffy with cast, so I depend on a FP/FN/SWC shape to offer up some frontal cross section to mess things up. Works in handguns too. The larger the cross section, the more damage is done. The heavier and faster it goes, same thing more or less within the limits of cast. Jacketed stuff is a little different, but I believe for the most part it still depends on you hitting something important on the target rather than shooting at the big part.
 

smokeywolf

Well-Known Member
Part of a hunter's responsibility to study the anatomy of the quarry. You need to have a good understanding of organ placement, skeletal structure and the various entry points and angles which will give the best chance that your bullet takes both lungs or even better, one lung and the heart.
Although I have no problem with using a 30-06, I'd prefer 348 or 45-70.