Just how much authority is needed to kill stuff

[Edward R Southgate]

I need enough juice to leave a good hole on both sides to let blood out and cold air in on soft tissue shots. On a shoulder shot I want to break both shoulders . I'm of the Keith school .

 

[RBHarter]

To be certain it is all about disruption of the red fluid and CNS depression. I would want to believe that everyone would have a minimum working knowledge of organ location in the intended game .

I concur that center of mass and let fly is poor judgement , I would take a quartering away behind the on shoulder Infront of the off shoulder with the lower duplex step on the elbow point every time with little regard to bullet expansion as I can only think of one on hand that wouldn't exit with available ammo . Those 70s vintage 50 gr PSP in 222 were supposed to splatter though so its all good and given that set up even small deer would be on the menu , 1 of my last choices for this to be sure .

I think all but 3 of my cast bullets have a minimum of 30% flat nose most closer to 50% .
I hadn't given too much to sharp corners vs rounded on a nose flat in terms of how it exchanges energy . More food for thought .......

 

[Bret4207]

I don't believe anyone will ever do wrong sticking with Saint Elmers advice. A 35 does a better job than a 30, given the same placement, design and speed, simple as that. But even Elmers big guns didn't always bring home the meat. Those "southbound shots at a northbound elk" are always going to be iffy. A through and through with cast might not, probably won't, get you the "dead right there" shot you read about in advertising hype. But even an old blind guy like me can follow a good blood trail. It's those sketchy shots where you find some hair and blood at the scene and then nothing 10 yards later that are the problem. Sheer bullet weight, size or speed won't make up for poor shooting. Some of the most common sense advice I ever heard involved smaller caliber round balls, as compared to 50's and 54's, in black powder rifles. The old BP expert advised me that people should aim to break the shoulders in a deer, which a 40-45 cal can certainly do, rather than take the far more popular "big area" lung shot. If the shoulder is busted he's gonna lay down ASAP. Worth considering.

The vast majority of my deer shooting involved car struck deer. Even at 10 feet with a 357 mag not putting the bullet in the right spot causes all sorts of issues. With a 38 Spec standard load equivalent (9mm sub-sonic FBI loads) just getting through the front plate of the skull could be an issue with bigger deer, to say nothing of the odd cow or horse that gets nailed in the road. I've seen other people put 5-6 of the so called "good 9mm ammo" (124 Gold Dot) in a deers heart lung area and still have it flop around on the roadside for long enough to generate complaints to the Zone office about people not knowing how to shoot. (She was a lousy shot, that's for sure, but the problem was she couldn't look Bambi in the face and shoot it!) So, IMO and IME, shot placement combined with adequate penetration pretty much sums up the majority of the issue. More is better up to a point. After that it's just desire to use a bigger gun or something.

As far as the FN vs RN issue, my experiments with 30 cal designs on horse carcasses indicate that a FN gives more damage than a RN at the same speed. IMO the blunter RN, like the old B+M designs, work more like a FN. The pointier the RN, the more it acts like a FMJ type jacketed bullet. That's not to say a 30 or 35 cal hole in the heart isn't going to be effective, but a 40 or 50 cal hole leaks out faster.

 

[Intheshop]

Reckon it,"depends".

I've shot crows and other varmints with Lyman 311041('06,308)...and RCBS .243 95G.(6MM,243).

Both running below max for cast.The former @2200,the 243 about the same,maybe a little slower.

Center hits,and it's hard to tell one from another?Both bullets have very well filled/sharp meplats.Shot my first "double" with a Savage SA,243,Loopy 3-9x40.Split the first one in half,his brother was a foot or so behind.DRT....but there wasn't near the "air" between body parts on the second bird.

 

[John]

I have killed pheasants with one pellet hit I searched to find and had others with a full load of shot that hit the ground and ran 25 yards. They would have been lost if not for a good dog.
I think animals are like people, some are boxers that can take all kinds of punishment and others head for the Dr at the first sign of a hangnail.
I am in the camp of St Elmer, let some cold air in and some warm blood out of the chest cavity and they should not go far. I have seen great results with the 243 and the 35 Whelen doing that.

 

[Brad]

No matter where we hit em we need to allow for a bit of bad luck. Sometimes shit just happens. I prefer to have enough gun to overcome those eventualities.

With cast a 30-30 is the smallest I would want to hunt deer with. Shot a single buck with mine and the 165 RD bullet. No exit, bullet lodged in offside knee knuckle. Deer ran 25-50 yards before going down. MV was around 2000 fps and alloy was essentially WW+1% Sn. Never did recover the bullet. Solid chest shot at 30-40 yards.

To me a 35 Win or 35 Whelen is ideal with cast for deer. Plenty of bullet weight and diameter and decent downrange ballistics. Best 150 yard cast deer gun I own is a 375 H&H. A 265 gr cast at 2000 fps is mild on shoulder and shoots great. Plenty of punch down range too. That bullet is seen in our banner.

 

[Bret4207]

Diameter in reaction to quarry certainly plays a part in effectiveness. Shooting a crow, with an actual body the size of a plum, with a 6mm or 30 call is akin to hitting a deer with a bullet the size of a 5 gallon bucket! Of course there going to be significant damage. Shoot the same crow with a sewing needle or something that diameter at the same velocity and things change.

 

[Ian]

I read Paco Kelly's article on this subject last night. He had some interesting comments on it and also very much subscribes to the School of Elmer. Paco, like many of us, has had his share of WTF moments after watching an animal absorb a solid hit and run off for miles.

 

[Chris]

No matter where we hit em we need to allow for a bit of bad luck. Sometimes shit just happens. I prefer to have enough gun to overcome those eventualities.

With cast a 30-30 is the smallest I would want to hunt deer with. Shot a single buck with mine and the 165 RD bullet. No exit, bullet lodged in offside knee knuckle. Deer ran 25-50 yards before going down. MV was around 2000 fps and alloy was essentially WW+1% Sn. Never did recover the bullet. Solid chest shot at 30-40 yards.

To me a 35 Win or 35 Whelen is ideal with cast for deer. Plenty of bullet weight and diameter and decent downrange ballistics. Best 150 yard cast deer gun I own is a 375 H&H. A 265 gr cast at 2000 fps is mild on shoulder and shoots great. Plenty of punch down range too. That bullet is seen in our banner.

There are plenty who hunt from a stand who may not relate to the uncertainties of shooting game in the woods... unclear view of the animal, making an instant judgement whether to shoot or not, possibly running game. Also some game, i.e. boar, are tougher than deer unaware of your presence..

Driven game is usually running and now you introduce not just understanding of anatomy but shooting skill. There is a good chance you're going to be off a bit unless you regularly practice on running game targets.

I'm with Brad, you need a little extra performance in case of mistakes. This is not a call for magnums or more velocity necessarily, but rather be sure your bullet will enter, do some damage, and reliably exit. Diameter has a lot to do with it... Elmer was not out of line asking for bigger rifles, but he stated that most could not handle them or shoot them well.

Here's a link to a driven game video. Put yourself where the shooter is and see why extra insurance doesn't hurt. Watch carefully and you will see boar take several hits and still keep going... no idea what the hunters are shooting but I expect appropriate big bore rifles. When I was in Germany doing this the 9.3X62 and .375 H&H were very popular boar calibers. Also, the average daily kill was about 40 animals, mostly boar but some deer. Pretty good laboratory to see what works.

Somebody said earlier "you never wish you brought less gun".

 

[RBHarter]

I have seen most of those shots and made a couple of them . .

 

[Bret4207]

I'm with Brad, you need a little extra performance in case of mistakes. This is not a call for magnums or more velocity necessarily, but rather be sure your bullet will enter, do some damage, and reliably exit. Diameter has a lot to do with it... Elmer was not out of line asking for bigger rifles, but he stated that most could not handle them or shoot them well.

[/QUOTE

I think that's where a lot of shooters,( I won't call then "hunters" since most are not hunting at all, but rather shooting at game), are at today. I see it all the time up here when Bubba gets his new MAGNUM of whatever caliber. He takes 2 or 3 shots at a beer can at the sandpit and is so traumatized he will do almost anything to avoid shooting the rifle again...short of admitting he bought a mistake and seeking out something he can handle. No, it's not every shooter, but it's enough. They'd be a lot better off with an effective rifle they aren't scared of. Around here if your gun isn't a magnum of some sort your manhood and wisdom are called into question. And if it's an old standby like the 45/70, 32 Special, 7x57, 250 Savage, that just makes it worse! It's a pet peeve of mine, sorry for the rant.

 

[Edward R Southgate]

My deer rifle is a .243 shooting 100 grain Nosler flat base bullets in front of 34.5 grains if IMR 4320 . If you hit the heart/lung area you will need a sharp knife . Never needed to shoot one twice. This was a Minimum load in the 1970 Lyman book . It usually opens two holes . Both my boys use the same basic load but they use the 100 gr Privi bullet sold by Graf . They are not as well built as the Nosler and often enough do not exit but blow up like a varmint bullet. End result is the same ......Dead Deer if hit correctly . Never had one run more than 30 yards myself but the boys have had a few go 75 to 100 yds before they fell over or laid down . I think cold air from two holes increases the shock to the system considerably . Yup , I know these are jacketed not cast bullets but I have killed 3 deer with cast in the .243 and saw no difference in the results.......Correct placement.....Pass through.....Dead Deer...Quick .

 

[Chris]

Bret, it doesn't help that the gun rags have been promoting this stuff for decades. Advertising works...

They killed off the calibers that didn't fit the paradigm, i.e. .358 Winchester and others.

Not many mags worth reading anymore, either

 

[Edward R Southgate]

Chris ,

Agreed , I don't read any of them anymore .

Eddie

 

[Chris]

Years ago there was a study by a physician regarding bullets and lethality on game. He advanced the idea that first, a bullet had to affect the nervous system on both sides of the body (make 2 holes) which in essence feeds back to both hemispheres of the brain. Second, the effect on the CNS (shock) was most effective at something like 24-2500 fps with a larger diameter hole being better than smaller. Basically .358 Win and such.

Theories abound, but it was an interesting article. Anyone remember it or have it saved?

 

[Edward R Southgate]

Killed by my youngest son last week. Neck Shot x1 with Charter Bulldog and 245 gr Keith 429421 cast hard and 7.5 gr Unique. Broke the neck and off shoulder. He is in the stand 15 yds from the deer so the shot was roughly 20 yds.

 

[yodogsandman]

That was fun! Used the mouse to "shoot" as they ran by.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Chris]

Killed by my youngest son last week. Neck Shot x1 with Charter Bulldog and 245 gr Keith 429421 cast hard and 7.5 gr Unique. Broke the neck and off shoulder. He is in the stand 15 yds from the deer so the shot was roughly 20 yds. View attachment 2501

Nice going Ed, congratulations to your boy. Hopefully many more to come!

 

[Edward R Southgate]

Nice going Ed, congratulations to your boy. Hopefully many more to come!

Chris,

He's 22 and usually kills 5 or 6 a year but this is his first with a handgun . He's been hunting since he was 13 .

Eddie

 

[Chris]

Ed, they don't give whitetails away at the store. We hunt them and the odds are against the hunter. Congratulations are in order to any ethical and successful hunter... your son.