Looking at a 50-70 Govt

[oscarflytyer]

This one is an original Sharps New Model 1863 Cavalry Carbine, factory converted/refurbished by Sharps/Springfield Armory and reissued as the metallic cartridge 1867 Sharps Cavalry Carbine. Looks like it was issued, but nearly brand new. It didn't see much service.

The conversion included relining the barrel and chamber to take the 50-70 Govt cartridge. I had never looked at load data or molds for the 50-70, but kinda shocked that there is very little data available. Anybody playing with anything original in 50-70? (Replicas also?)

 

[300BLK]

I had a NY State Militia roller and recall shooting the Lee clone of the Lyman 515142 over a compressed load of Goex ffg. It shot very well with that load despite an iffy bore and 1-42" twist. A light kicker of smokeless turned what had been tight groups into keyholes and shotgun patterns.

The 515141 is the lighter (450gr?) bullet vs the 515142 more like 515gr.

Age hasn't made the iron in that Sharps any stronger, and with the value of that gun in the condition you describe, I would handle it with kid gloves.

 

[farmboy]

Check out this website ... phpBB... might give you some info...sponsored by Shiloh Arms.

 

[Snakeoil]

Relining the barrel?? I was not aware that such mods were done back then. I would have expected an armory to simply screw a new barrel into the action. But I see that relining is exactly what was done to these old carbines. Actually, the initial thought appears to have been to just reline the chamber. But further inspections revealed oversized bores so barrels were also relined. I never knew that relining a barrel had been around this long.

Here's an article I found on the subject of these very carbines. https://gunsmagazine.com/our-experts/sharps-50-70-carbine/

 

[oscarflytyer]

I have plenty of BP for it. Never loaded BP in metallic, but I know the basics of it.

farmboy - thanx!

Snake - yes they did reline the barrel. My research found that if the bbl was .5225" or greater, Sharps would send it to Springfield Armory for the reline. I assume that is due to Sharps not having the tooling, and SA did. The bore on this one looks like an AR chrome lined bore! It glows, it is so perfect. And, it is a 3 groove. Very interesting looking thing indeed.

 

[Snakeoil]

Loading BP in metallic cases is simple. One basic rule, NO AIR SPACE. I suggest 1F because that will give you the least recoil. Fill the case to a little more than where the base of the bullet will sit. I made a powder compression die from an old die that simply did that, compressed the powder. Only needs to be a little. It was the only step done on a loading press. If you don't want to do that, then seat the bullet so that you feel a sight crunch when the powder is compressed. I used a 30 inch drop tube running from my Lyman powder measure to the case. The drop tube helps compact the powder evenly.

I shot a Shiloh Sharps in BPCR for years. If you are not hunting and need to carry cartridges in your pocket or bag, then there is no need to crimp or resize your cases. Set up your loads so that the bullet starts to engrave the rifling and closing the action compresses the powder a bit.

I always decapped the fired cases at the range and cleaned the primer pocket at the same time. I then tossed them into a small jug with a big mouth (like a fabric softener or laundry detergent jug) filled with water and Dawn dish detergent. Drop your fired empties into the jug. When you get home, shake the jug and then dump into a plastic tub or bucket. I made a small jag out of a piece of dowel that would go into the end of a cheap electric screwdriver. I put a patch on the jag and swab out the inside of the cases. I rinsed them in hot water and then put them in a net bag to dry. I actually used another step that you don't need to do, but it makes them dry faster. After rinsing in hot water, I rinsed them in denatured alcohol and then put them in the net bag to dry. I reused that alcohol forever.

Reloading is then a simple matter of priming and charging with powder compressing the powder (if you choose to do that) and/or setting a bullet on top of compressed powder or compressing the powder with the bullet in your press.

You'll need an ammo box that keeps the cartridges vertical with the bullets up. I made mine. Foam in the top to keep the bullets in place. If you are going to hunt with the rifle, then you'll need to crimp the bullets or have good neck tension and the special ammo box is not required.

Have fun. Can't wait to hear your first report about recoil. That ain't no .22.

 

[Missionary]

There is a bunch of fun awaiting you ! We have one and a feller that got me started in BPCR has one.
Very simple with BP. Snake oil farmboy and 300blk all wrote it well. There are lighter cast molds out there but the 450 Lee is a fine starter.
A slip on recoil pad and it is no more than a 12 gauge.
We also shoot a .518 RB in ours and it will go through every critter we have ever hit. WE size down a .530 RB 40-1 in our sizer to .518 then load the flats touching the case walls. Depending on your carbine chamber a .515 may work OK if that is the sizer you have. Our carbine is somewhat fat.

 

[RicinYakima]

Lets see; I have a C. Sharps Arms Model 1874 Hunter's rifle and a Schutzen Gun Company Rolling block rebuilt on a black powder action.

The only bullet I have that shoots well is the Hoch 450 grain reproduction of the military bullet. I have tried original .50 Ideal moulds that were made for the .50 Winchester cartridges, but they were all too big to fit into the case unless sized too much.

Black powder is probably the way to go. However I have used 26 grains of SR4759 in the Sharps and 24 grains in the RB. These loads require a firm crimp to insure good starting combustion. Avoid the shotgun powders for the original actions, as my feeling is the pressure rise to too quick for them. Professional writers seem to like H4198 at 40% of weight of black powder load, in this case 28 grains.

 

[JustJim]

Loading/shooting the original 50-70 has been confounded by the reproductions in this chambering. The old guns tend to want bullets .515-.518", while the new ones are set up for .510" or so bullets. The older RCBS and Lyman dies work OK for the larger bullet, but the new ones can be a headache. Last I knew, RCBS could and would still make a correct brass sizing die, and a custom expander.

The conversion Sharps with lined barrel I've had the chance to mess about with tended to do ok with Lee's 450 gr bullet; the mould casts "oversize"--usually about .515-.517". I used 30:1 lead/tin, wanting the bullet to bump up if needed. I've never gotten to play with one with an unlined barrel, so don't even have a starting point there.

Brass is in short supply currently. When you find some, you'll probably want to minimize sizing, and anneal every few loads.

I was using 65 gr. FFg in Starline cases. Most of the carbines would do 3-4" at 100 yards, fired off the bench. They do tend to be sighted to hit high, 18"-30". We stacked targets (aim at the top target, score the bottom target) or set up an aiming point above the backstop.

 

[RicinYakima]

If you look at my 50 yard target, the rifle is sighted in for 75 yards in the 10 ring. 100 yards is six o'clock below the black. Welcome to the world of 50/70. Mine is set up to shoot cow elk in the 50 yard range in the fern jungles of western Washington.

 

[oscarflytyer]

Passed on it. He wanted WAY too much for my blood!

 

[300BLK]

$3K?

 

[oscarflytyer]

$3550

 

[Michael]

Ouch! For that money you could buy a new Shiloh 1874 Sharps Saddle Rifle or Hartford, or Business, or No 1 Sporter, etc. with a good set of MVA sights, dies, brass, a mold, and some cash left over (more if you just went with the standard issue sights).

 

[Missionary]

If you will be patient they show up for under $1K on auction sites...
Small local gun shows are another good place.
Rebarrel a .43 Spanish RB that has a rusted sewer pipe barrel the cheapest route we have gone. Send it to Jess Reboring or Hoyt next less $$.
But I have not bought a new caliber .50 barrel in a couple years. So the rebore may be equal $$ today.

 

[oscarflytyer]

Wasn't the 50-70 I really wanted, but the Sharps Carbine converted (by Sharps/Springfield Armory/factory refurb) to the metallic cartridge 50-70 I really wanted!