My post was somewhat tongue in cheek, but I do want to convey to the newbie and ones thinking about it--IT AINT ROCKET SCIENCE and aint that hard. Had conversation today with the guy in a sporting goods store that tunes bows. He said he thought about casting bullets but didn't have anything to shoot them with. He had already told me several guns he shoots. He had been told so many misconceptions it scared him off. Why do I like free wheelweights?--Because I'm cheap.
New alloy
- Thread starter Brad
- Start date
Cheap? I shoot mostly range scrap I pick up myself. I hate guys who shoot steel plates and are good, every "plink" is a bullet that doesn't make it to the berm.
Rocket science? Doesn't need to be. Sometimes I think I have more trouble from over thinking rather than under thinking.
Rocket science? Doesn't need to be. Sometimes I think I have more trouble from over thinking rather than under thinking.
Warren4570
Active Member
alloyed up the ingots with the solder and should have very close to what I posted from the spread sheet ... cast it all into smaller ingots and did some casting. Took a while to figure it out ... alloy temp and getting the molds warmed up so that bullets without wrinkles would cast and the edges were sharp.
The PID I built helped thanx to you folks here and your project threads
Cast some air cooled and some I water quenched as I am still looking the right deal on an oven to heat treat with.
Have an extra thermocouple waiting for that project.
Did a destructive test on a couple of the 420 gr slugs.The air cooled took 4 good hard whacks with a 4# hammer to pound flat and about .125" thick no tearing or cracking in the alloy. The water dropped bullet took a good 12 hard whacks with the 4# hammer to pound flat with the same result. Loaded some up and shot them with little to no significant leading. MV @about 1700fps for the loads in the 45-70's.
The lee push through die needs to be opened up a bit more to hit .460 but will do that when I get home.
Looking at a star sizer and if I pick on up will open the lee die to .461 just for seatin the gc's.
Still need to hammer down alloy temp, mold temp, and casting rhythm to get the bullet weights and sizing a bit more consistent.
The PID I built helped thanx to you folks here and your project threads
Cast some air cooled and some I water quenched as I am still looking the right deal on an oven to heat treat with.
Have an extra thermocouple waiting for that project.
Did a destructive test on a couple of the 420 gr slugs.The air cooled took 4 good hard whacks with a 4# hammer to pound flat and about .125" thick no tearing or cracking in the alloy. The water dropped bullet took a good 12 hard whacks with the 4# hammer to pound flat with the same result. Loaded some up and shot them with little to no significant leading. MV @about 1700fps for the loads in the 45-70's.
The lee push through die needs to be opened up a bit more to hit .460 but will do that when I get home.
Looking at a star sizer and if I pick on up will open the lee die to .461 just for seatin the gc's.
Still need to hammer down alloy temp, mold temp, and casting rhythm to get the bullet weights and sizing a bit more consistent.
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Much of my "base metal" has been scrap from indoor ranges. I had lots of buckets of the stuff, and paid as little as .03/# for it. Smelting in a dutch oven over propane made it relatively easy to process into clean ingots, and there were some pots with up to 50% loss (sand, jackets, wood chips, paper). I finished cleaning the remainder of those buckets last year, and the resultant metal cast rather nicely, water dropped to >18bhn, so some has been shot without adding anything. My rifle stuff generally hasn't exceeded 2200fps. I had a local guy analyze some of the mystery metals I have/had just to satisfy my curiosity, and the range lead came back 95.9/2.2/1.9. A batch of babbitt came back 85.9/8.9/5.2, and a batch of grainy stuff skimmed from telephone cable sheathing just beyond melting point showed 93.6 Pb/2.9 Sb/ 3.5Cu. Unfortunately, Kevin has since retired, so I'm back to proportioning mixes by observing how well they cast and harden.
Warren4570
Active Member
This is as much about shooting as it is science in my case. I am not fortunate enough to live in an area where smelting scrap would be deemed acceptable with the neighbors. As such my alloy was purchased and blended with a specific goal in mind. Once the goals are reached and testing completed the supplier will reverse engineer the alloy and blend up some for me.
Initial observations have been good so far.
My main advantage is the alloy I am using is of a known composition. And has been initially batched in one 125lb batch. All then cast roughly 1 lb ingots.
Initial observations have been good so far.
My main advantage is the alloy I am using is of a known composition. And has been initially batched in one 125lb batch. All then cast roughly 1 lb ingots.
fiver
Well-Known Member
that's pretty much what I do with all of mine.
I get the ingots [ from cleaning wws, lino scraps, and dunno but soft stuff] and then proportion everything out as i smelt it so I can re-melt it all back together and make one big pile of the same alloy.
I then adjust it for each rifle or pistol or revolver by adding some of this and/or some of that. [or usually nothing]
and I can continue to do that until it's all gone, then throw the next big batch together trying to get it close to the first one.
it's worked for me for 30 plus years now.
I get the ingots [ from cleaning wws, lino scraps, and dunno but soft stuff] and then proportion everything out as i smelt it so I can re-melt it all back together and make one big pile of the same alloy.
I then adjust it for each rifle or pistol or revolver by adding some of this and/or some of that. [or usually nothing]
and I can continue to do that until it's all gone, then throw the next big batch together trying to get it close to the first one.
it's worked for me for 30 plus years now.
Warren4570
Active Member
Only advantage I really have over doing that ( smelting cww etc) is that alloy composition is a known composition. Messing with copper and other elements and the calculator percentages can be adjusted with confidence so that you know you're heading in the right direction to achieve intended results.
My lead supplier will reverse engineer ( by chemical analysis) the alloy and bulk produce it as required once I am done.
My lead supplier will reverse engineer ( by chemical analysis) the alloy and bulk produce it as required once I am done.
Warren4570
Active Member
Did some testing with the 420gr bullet and the alloy . With the lee hardness tester it shows 18-20bhn, the load 41gr of 3031 aand a cci nato primer in starline brass. Fully sized. Testing neck sized is next. Groups well, a cloverleaf with 3 shots @ 100yds and shoots at 1600fps at the muzzle.
Did some destuctive tests with it as well into a 30 inch long soaking wet log. To retrieve the bullets we had to use an axe, a hatchet and a hammer along with some judicious pounding to get the wood to split.
See photos .....
about 16" penetration 
lost the gas check but drove hard deep and straight
Next shot.........
about 10" deep n straight after plowing thru a knot but retained gas check
unshot as cast sized n lubed 421.5gr ....
397.4gr after plowing thru the knot gc intact ....
394.6gr but lost the check 1st shot.
Next day I wound up cleanly taking this nice bull @ 150yds with the above load
about 600lbs on the hoof we figured
But nothing more satisfying than a clean harvest with your own cast bullets and handloads and a freezer full of meat to boot
Did some destuctive tests with it as well into a 30 inch long soaking wet log. To retrieve the bullets we had to use an axe, a hatchet and a hammer along with some judicious pounding to get the wood to split.
See photos .....
about 16" penetration lost the gas check but drove hard deep and straightNext shot.........
about 10" deep n straight after plowing thru a knot but retained gas check unshot as cast sized n lubed 421.5gr .... 397.4gr after plowing thru the knot gc intact .... 394.6gr but lost the check 1st shot.Next day I wound up cleanly taking this nice bull @ 150yds with the above load
about 600lbs on the hoof we figuredBut nothing more satisfying than a clean harvest with your own cast bullets and handloads and a freezer full of meat to boot
The bullet held together very well in the wood. Wood like that can be hard on bullets, I'm impressed with how well it retained its shape.
The REAL test was the last photo. A clean harvest on a very nice bull. The bullet did exactly what it was supposed to. Very well done.
The REAL test was the last photo. A clean harvest on a very nice bull. The bullet did exactly what it was supposed to. Very well done.
Warren4570
Active Member
Next step is to test air cooled not water dropped to see how they react on impact and shoot. This copper enriched alloy doesn't seem to age harden much just stays there within a couple points.
Yeah that wood was hard took quite a lot of beating to split it.
Thank you for the comments Brad they are appreciated
Yeah that wood was hard took quite a lot of beating to split it.
Thank you for the comments Brad they are appreciated
Warren4570
Active Member
Brad have you had a chance to cast n shoot any of you cu enriched alloy? We are both pretty close I think in alloy content.
Warren4570
Active Member
So far I am impressed with the performance mostly from a toughness and plasticitypoint of view. Using modified felix lube as well and get minimal leading. The first loads performed pretty well loaded quite a bit hotter. My next test though will be loaded to be 1600fps at 150-200yds with aircooled bullets then shot into hardwood and compare results.
Let me know how you do when you try it out though
Let me know how you do when you try it out though
Cherokee
Medina, Ohio
I basically use two alloys: T/A/L of 2/3/95 and 3/3/94. I make large batches of these. For something unusual, I have plenty of Lino, soft lead and tin in original form. Most of my shooting is 357, 45 ACP & Colt, 9mm and 30 Carbine with some other rifles from time to time. Rifles and 9mm get 3/3, everything else 2/3 alloy.
Craig Duncan
New Member
Gentlemen,
Please school me here about this alloy. I've looked at this thread on this forum, and tried to read through all the other threads on other sites about adding copper to your alloy.
Quiet frankly, I'm a tad confused.
I don't want to pour stump remover, root killer and kitty liter into or on top of my alloy.
I'd prefer not to take little pieces of wire and tin them, hoping they'll melt and make a repeatable alloy.
I'm used to working with lead/tin alloys with an occasional foray into Lyman#2 and linotype based alloys.
My big heavy match bullets are all ladle poured from a lead/tin alloy.
I use a home made PID controller on my pots.
I hold my 500+ grain bullets to a half grain tolerance.
I mostly shoot steel and believe in bullet "dwell time" on the target.
I buy my alloys, 99% of the time from RotoMetals as they are a contributing sponsor to matches my wife and I run.
I burn a boat load of Swiss each year.
All that being said, when ever I've tried to drive very hard cast bullets, using smokeless powder, from rifles at steel targets at high velocity they shatter and perform poorly.
If I cast the same bullet from a softer alloy and shoot it slower groups are good and the animals fall over. Sure I need to use more elevation on my back sight but they work.
I'd like to use some vintage moulds I have that are of the Lovering design.
I have a few moulds in 6.5 and 30 caliber.
In 6.5 I have Ideal moulds # 266469.
In 30 caliber I have #31278, 311466 and 311467.
Alloys that I keep in stock are, pure lead, 30-1 through 16-1 and Lyman #2
All the ingots weight about 5 pounds.
RotoMetals has a chart of babbit metals.
http://www.rotometals.com/Babbit-Bearing-Alloys-s/2.htm
These ingots weigh about a pound.
What, if any are the advantages of brewing an alloy cocktail of copper, antimony, lead and tin?
Thanks,
Craig
Please school me here about this alloy. I've looked at this thread on this forum, and tried to read through all the other threads on other sites about adding copper to your alloy.
Quiet frankly, I'm a tad confused.
I don't want to pour stump remover, root killer and kitty liter into or on top of my alloy.
I'd prefer not to take little pieces of wire and tin them, hoping they'll melt and make a repeatable alloy.
I'm used to working with lead/tin alloys with an occasional foray into Lyman#2 and linotype based alloys.
My big heavy match bullets are all ladle poured from a lead/tin alloy.
I use a home made PID controller on my pots.
I hold my 500+ grain bullets to a half grain tolerance.
I mostly shoot steel and believe in bullet "dwell time" on the target.
I buy my alloys, 99% of the time from RotoMetals as they are a contributing sponsor to matches my wife and I run.
I burn a boat load of Swiss each year.
All that being said, when ever I've tried to drive very hard cast bullets, using smokeless powder, from rifles at steel targets at high velocity they shatter and perform poorly.
If I cast the same bullet from a softer alloy and shoot it slower groups are good and the animals fall over. Sure I need to use more elevation on my back sight but they work.
I'd like to use some vintage moulds I have that are of the Lovering design.
I have a few moulds in 6.5 and 30 caliber.
In 6.5 I have Ideal moulds # 266469.
In 30 caliber I have #31278, 311466 and 311467.
Alloys that I keep in stock are, pure lead, 30-1 through 16-1 and Lyman #2
All the ingots weight about 5 pounds.
RotoMetals has a chart of babbit metals.
http://www.rotometals.com/Babbit-Bearing-Alloys-s/2.htm
These ingots weigh about a pound.
What, if any are the advantages of brewing an alloy cocktail of copper, antimony, lead and tin?
Thanks,
Craig
Craig,
I think you have it correct, dwell time on target. Harder can't do that for you. I think most of the guys that have been experimenting with copper alloy have been doing so with velocity in mind, not steel targets. I shot silhouette since the early 80's and stopped ringing rams in the early 90's when I stopped using lino. The hardest bullet I used since was 2% Sb, 2% Sn heat treated to 18 BHN and that only in high end revolver. Everything else was the same alloy without heat treating and 12 BHN.
No doubt somebody will chime in that I have it all wrong but my perspective is the same as yours, malleable and dwell time on target. If your goal is strictly velocity without regard to the target a copper alloy could be an interesting pursuit. I followed the threads on copper alloy also and never saw anything in it that would benefit my shooting steel.
I think you have it correct, dwell time on target. Harder can't do that for you. I think most of the guys that have been experimenting with copper alloy have been doing so with velocity in mind, not steel targets. I shot silhouette since the early 80's and stopped ringing rams in the early 90's when I stopped using lino. The hardest bullet I used since was 2% Sb, 2% Sn heat treated to 18 BHN and that only in high end revolver. Everything else was the same alloy without heat treating and 12 BHN.
No doubt somebody will chime in that I have it all wrong but my perspective is the same as yours, malleable and dwell time on target. If your goal is strictly velocity without regard to the target a copper alloy could be an interesting pursuit. I followed the threads on copper alloy also and never saw anything in it that would benefit my shooting steel.
Craig Duncan
New Member
Well Ian,
That's just it, in the upcoming season, I do want to drive cast bullets as close to jacketed velocities as I can, if I can.
For my black powder stuff, I'm good for 200 to 500 meters. I'm not the best shot on the range nor am I the worst.
And we do poke away at steel out further. If I'm at 1000 yards, I have 160 or so minutes of elevation on my back sight.
I want to use my Savage F/TR or my Winchester M-70 out far and was intrigued about how adding copper to my alloy will increase malleability of my bullets.
I guess, what I'm trying to ask here from folks who have done it is:
If I have 5 or 10 pounds of #2 alloy, or 16-1 alloy, what do I need to add in the way of Babbit alloy or pewter alloy.
Do I melt 10 lbs of 16-1 and toss in a 1lb ingot Rotometals "SuperTough"?
Will that let me launch a Lee 230 or a NOE 247 from a 1-8 twist Savage 308 at jacketed velocities?
I read about the powder coating stuff and tried it on those bullets.
We do powder coating at the shop so it was easy to do some bullets.
Accuracy was miserable, and when I tried them using full house loads in a 300 Win Mag, well, they never reached the 100 yard berm.
Craig
That's just it, in the upcoming season, I do want to drive cast bullets as close to jacketed velocities as I can, if I can.
For my black powder stuff, I'm good for 200 to 500 meters. I'm not the best shot on the range nor am I the worst.
And we do poke away at steel out further. If I'm at 1000 yards, I have 160 or so minutes of elevation on my back sight.
I want to use my Savage F/TR or my Winchester M-70 out far and was intrigued about how adding copper to my alloy will increase malleability of my bullets.
I guess, what I'm trying to ask here from folks who have done it is:
If I have 5 or 10 pounds of #2 alloy, or 16-1 alloy, what do I need to add in the way of Babbit alloy or pewter alloy.
Do I melt 10 lbs of 16-1 and toss in a 1lb ingot Rotometals "SuperTough"?
Will that let me launch a Lee 230 or a NOE 247 from a 1-8 twist Savage 308 at jacketed velocities?
I read about the powder coating stuff and tried it on those bullets.
We do powder coating at the shop so it was easy to do some bullets.
Accuracy was miserable, and when I tried them using full house loads in a 300 Win Mag, well, they never reached the 100 yard berm.
Craig
Warren4570
Active Member
I went with the aditional of a bit of CU.... 0.05 to 0.08% looking for a tougher alloy. In this case it wasnt for speed but for plasticity and malleability on impact. As in this case the calibers being shot are 45-70 and 454 cassul speeds of 1200 to 2000FPS are all that is being targeted.
Currently the SRH 454 290gr load is loaded at 1300fps .... I may push this to 1500fps later as my handgun shooting improves.
The 420gr 45-70 load 1700fps and my 360gr load at 1900fps.
The 420 is shot out of an 1895 marlin
The 360 grain load and a 350 speer jacket bullet are solely shot out of a mp221 bakial double.
The pouring temp is a bit higher with copper in it and it does freeze faster it seems.
But like I stated above the goal was a tough alloy more than high velocity. You can see how the alloy that was blended in this discussion reacted to being shot into water logged hard wood in a post above. weight retention was very good. A nice bull elk fell lest fall with that alloy as well. I do have to say I dont get leading but thats mostly because of size of slug,alloy and felix lube I believe.
In a 300 pound batch I just did up the cu content is 0.06. which is close to the eutectic point of CU/PB. and lower that the last batch I had done up. SN and SB are about 3% and arsenic via magnum shot .18% .... This Round I will heat treat and experiment with at bhn18 to 20. Base alloy is BHN12
The 454 slugs I may not heat treat as bhn12 should allow the cup point 290gr slug to expand without comin apart.
The way CU was added in this case was through Lead free plumbing solder. as I got a good deal on it. It is already alloyed with tin and as such is easy to blend. #3 babbit from Rotometals is another good source of CU for blending.
If you go with a CU enriched alloy it does take a bit of experimentation and some reading. And totally depends on the specific application you are targeting.
The group here, articles at LASC and some technical papers on lead alloys steered the course.
Hope this helps
Currently the SRH 454 290gr load is loaded at 1300fps .... I may push this to 1500fps later as my handgun shooting improves.
The 420gr 45-70 load 1700fps and my 360gr load at 1900fps.
The 420 is shot out of an 1895 marlin
The 360 grain load and a 350 speer jacket bullet are solely shot out of a mp221 bakial double.
The pouring temp is a bit higher with copper in it and it does freeze faster it seems.
But like I stated above the goal was a tough alloy more than high velocity. You can see how the alloy that was blended in this discussion reacted to being shot into water logged hard wood in a post above. weight retention was very good. A nice bull elk fell lest fall with that alloy as well. I do have to say I dont get leading but thats mostly because of size of slug,alloy and felix lube I believe.
In a 300 pound batch I just did up the cu content is 0.06. which is close to the eutectic point of CU/PB. and lower that the last batch I had done up. SN and SB are about 3% and arsenic via magnum shot .18% .... This Round I will heat treat and experiment with at bhn18 to 20. Base alloy is BHN12
The 454 slugs I may not heat treat as bhn12 should allow the cup point 290gr slug to expand without comin apart.
The way CU was added in this case was through Lead free plumbing solder. as I got a good deal on it. It is already alloyed with tin and as such is easy to blend. #3 babbit from Rotometals is another good source of CU for blending.
If you go with a CU enriched alloy it does take a bit of experimentation and some reading. And totally depends on the specific application you are targeting.
The group here, articles at LASC and some technical papers on lead alloys steered the course.
Hope this helps
Warren4570
Active Member
Craig I attached an excel spreadsheet alloy calc I found a long time ago at CB I cannot take credit for it at all
Plug in your alloys and weights and you will get the final mix at the bottom
very easy to play with.
Plug in your alloys and weights and you will get the final mix at the bottom
very easy to play with.