Plain Base Cast bullets ( Rifle) observation!

JWFilips

Well-Known Member
I shoot a lot of plain base bullets in my rifles ( with light loads) We all know the drill ...."the base has to be pristine when cast". Today we had a bit of a thaw in the berm at our shooting range so I decide to pick up some of my lead I deposited in it over the deep freeze of the past month.
Since I have been shooting exclusively my 1916 Spanish mauser ( with PC coated bullets); I found it easy to pick up a handful of those colored fired casts. I was instanly struck by the fact that the nice rifling grooves in the bullet caused the alloy to extend beyond the base of the bullet! Yes there were extrusions beyond the base of the bullets! Is this normal or a sign of trouble?
Jim
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
trailing edge failure.
Harry Pope designed a bevel base bullet to combat those displaced edges moving back past the base of the bullet.

that angle is also something we pay attention to when drawing up bullet designs and especially when dealing with lube grooves and the bottom drive band.
the metal is going to move and it has to go somewhere but it has to do so evenly and consistently.
if you change the wall angle you can [try anyway] keep the movement in as compact an area as possible.

think about the increase in accuracy at speed with a gas check.
I often wonder just how much of the increase is because of gas blockage and how much is because of the little gap there giving a open concealed place for metal displacement.
it's also a big debate point with slick sided bullets.
and it is found on some of the copper type bullets I find at the range, I believe the accuracy increase on the old Barnes bullets was directly related to them cutting bands on the drive surface of the bullet just for this same reason.
 

Eutectic

Active Member
Harry Pope designed a bevel base bullet to combat those displaced edges moving back past the base of the bullet.
A pet peeve of Pope!
This is also why ol' Harry liked to seat the bullet from the muzzle using his 'false muzzle' to do so accurately. The bullet was pushed into the barrel to a determined length to get it just in front the case. The casing, powder and wad was then chambered to fire. With Pope's designs this pushed the excess lead smoothly out into the ogive and having left a perfect engraving at the base at launch..
Pope guaranteed his barrels to shoot the smallest groups using this muzzle loading method.

Pete
 

Rally Hess

Well-Known Member
But what happens to the lead displaced by the rifling using Pope's muzzle loading method? Seems it would then be displaced to the ogive and then smeared along the barrel at launch. I've seen round balls extracted from muzzle loaders that had quite a bit of lead displaced by rifling.
 

Eutectic

Active Member
With Pope's designs this pushed the excess lead smoothly out into the ogive and having left a perfect engraving at the base at launch..
I'm a real believe in what Pope says....... Anyone who can compete with a barrel rifled on a "treadle lathe" knows something we can glean knowledge from!
A longtime back I saw a picture of a Pope 'muzzle loaded' bullet that was pushed all the way through un-shot..... With a perfect aligned backwards start I remember the engraving looking different but even..... One must remember this method also has a uniform bore pre-lube before firing. It is said a perfect base is the key to best accuracy and I agree from personal experience. Mann's book speaks of this.... Might have to reread it with the weather..... I'll plow snow between chapters!:rolleyes:

Pete
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
Rally that is a good question,
depending on how the lube grooves are cut into the drive bands, and how the bullet is tapered, the displacement can be almost nothing more than an elongating of the drive bands.
the first base band or two would have enough metal moved up into the lube grooves to make a good seal.
and there would be less and less engraving from that point forward. [think Loverign designs only with bigger drive bands]


airc it was marshall in the 50's/60's that talked about minimal sizing for best results.
IMO that needs to be carried over to the barrel doing minimal sizing also,
the closer that the bullet comes to a 'dragging slip fit' from the mold the better.
 

Eutectic

Active Member
Excellent points Lamar! And another BIG one.... Almost all Pope mold designs I know of are tapered! By this I mean the base band is the largest diameter and each band forward is a thousandth or two smaller. My Dad's .30 caliber Pope mold casts .301" on the top band and .3025" on the next down. I looked at this as throat alignment (which it is) but for muzzle loading Pope style the front end of the bullet should see little or no lead flow with this design towards the top bands or ogive.

Pete
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
we haven't discussed slump or the slugging up effect either.
but that certainly plays a big part of what happens here too.
the smaller diameter front bands well we know what happens there for the most part.

the cool thing about the muzzle loading method is you have everything straight and in place before messing things up.
 

Rally Hess

Well-Known Member
Pete,
I wasn't questioning Pope's abilities at all, just wondering out loud where that displaced lead would end up, while picturing that extracted round ball I mentioned. I've often wondered the same thing about conicals used in muzzle loaders. Maybe the uniform lube and muzzle loading also has some cleaning effect for any left over residue/lead.
 

Eutectic

Active Member
Rally, I didn't think that at all! I'm glad you chimed in. I never looked at Pope's tapered bullet designs from a 'false muzzle' loading before this thread in fact!

I love Lamar's line "the cool thing about the muzzle loading method is you have everything straight and in place before messing things up." It's so great when one line says so much! Almost all in fact!

Pete
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
I think we also skipped the fact that he designed a bullet for each method and that the tapered base [I believe] design is the fixed cartridge type and was a later design for going forward.
it seems to me the tapered base would certainly be a help in loading without a false muzzle though.

I'm not familiar enough with any of his timelines as far as what/when he done stuff.
I would bet Elric would be a help here and could dig up some information from that time frame.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Hit the nail on the head, 358156 hp! Of course you can always use an Egan taper, nose first, die, and turn anything into a tapered bullet.
 

Eutectic

Active Member
Here' some comments on Pope's muzzle loading system. Parts are actual Pope statements............

"Will Hayes was another of the old-timers. The Pope muzzle-loading system might never have been developed if I hadn't met him at the Newark Schuetzenfest in 1888. He was the real inventor of the 'Pope' muzzle-breech loading system. "Hays wanted a gun to load greased bullets from the muzzle, for accuracy, and yet use metal cases for convenience of loading. The rifle was made for him about 1884 by George Schalk.

Schalk didn't want to make such a crazy gun, wouldn't put his name on it, though after he saw it shoot he put it on in a hurry. It was a 16-pound ..33 caliber on a Ballard action, using .32-40 cases and a grooved 162-grain bullet with no patch. Hayes offered to lend it to me. Of course, I didn't accept, but I did make one like it.

"I was still making barrels for myself alone. That first muzzle-breech loader I made was in 25 caliber, after seeing the results Hayes got with his Schalk rifle. Then I made two or three lighter rifles like it. The cases were made from .32 Extra Longs, and held 30 grains of powder with a 120-grain bullet.

"Not long after that I bought a heavy .32-40 Winchester Single-Shot and rebored it for a .33 muzzle-loader. With it I began to win. So far that rifle has been fired about 125,000 times, and all with the old mercuric chlorate primers. They're supposed to raise hell with a gun, but it's perfect yet, after that use.

"It was at this time that I would save money to come to the New York matches from Hartford. Every time I'd go broke, have to borrow money for entry fees, then go home and borrow some more to pay my New York debts - that is, unless I'd been lucky and taken enough prize money to repay them, and then I'd be home again saving for the next trip."

By this time the Pope muzzle-loading system was developed in its final form. Harry had modified the Schalk method of rifling as used in the original Hayes rifle: his own consisted of eight wide grooves on a radius about three times that of the bore, gain twist, with the corners of the grooves rounded instead of square, which tended to make cleaning easier. The grooves were cut just deeply enough to clear the bore in the center and give a depth at the corners of about .004 inch, half that of Schalk's rifling. The lands were very narrow, about 1/8th to 1/10th the width of the grooves. The bore was given a slight, gradual taper from breech to muzzle.

To be capable of fine accuracy, Pope found that a bullet must be delivered from the muzzle with a perfectly square base. Breech-loading will not do this as fins of lead invariably are swedged out of the base of the bullet when it enters the construction of the bore nose first. To overcome this prime cause of inaccuracy the Pope bullet was inserted at the muzzle, the case with powder being afterward placed in the chamber in the ordinary way. By the simple act of pushing the bullet down the bore base first the dirt of the proceeding shot was scraped down the bore ahead of it, leaving a uniformly clean channel for the bullet when fired. As well, the base of the bullet remained square and concentric.

Each bullet had to be entered through a tapered false muzzle that gently swedged it into the bore without deforming it. The entire Pope system of muzzle-loading was developed to affect the delivery of a perfect bullet with its centers of weight and form true and undisturbed. By obtaining a phenomenal uniformity of delivery. Pope was able to secure the same uniformity in his results, reducing the error at the target to a minimum.

"Now look here. You say my muzzle-loaders took longer to load. Actually that isn't so. The total loading time was the same as for an ordinary breech-loader. Just to show you: I was alone at the range one day, didn't have to hurry, and noticed the time I took. In two hours and ten minutes I had fired 100 shots, which meant re- and decapping the shell, throwing a charge, lubricating, starting and seating each bullet as well as the normal procedure of firing offhand. You couldn't load 100 cartridges with a modern loading tool and fire them carefully in much less time.

The superb accuracy of these rifles, properly handled, is unchallenged. Pope guaranteed that any of his muzzle loading rifles, with the exception of the 25 caliber, would shoot into 2 inches at 200 yards, loaded from the muzzle. Groups made by Pope, the late C. W. Rowland, dean of the old-time rest shooters, Donaldson, Roberts and others, that show ten shots at 100 yards and even 200 yards going into one ragged hole, have often been published. Pope himself has one 200 yard target that shows 10 shots grouping within 5/8 of an inch, center to center! Though temperamental, the Pope muzzle-breach loading Schuetzen rifle, under proper conditions and in the hands of a rifleman willing to study and master the methods that must be used to get results, will yet outshoot up to 200 yards any other type of rifle in existence."
 

Dale53

Active Member
There has been some fine modern plain base lead bullet targets shot by people I know. Jim Borton, a noted ASSRA shooter of Schuetzen Rifles has made several perfect scores at the standard 200 yard range. Ten shots, at that. Here is one witnessed target of his:



Most of his fine targets were shot during competition, too. His bullets were his cast bullets in a mold made by him and breech seated.

FWIW,
Dale53
 

Dale53

Active Member
In the past ten years, several 250/250’s have been shot at the ASSRA Nationals. The range is not a particularly easy place to shoot, either. When those levels of performance are done “In front of God and everybody”, it IS impressive!

As I remember, Jim Borton shot TWO 250’s in one day during the Nationals.

Understand, these were plain base bullets shot at 1400-1500 fps. I was a pretty decent shot, but, as I remember, my best score at the Nationals was a 246/250. That’s at 200 yards (Standard distance).

FWIW,
Dale53