Remington close to default on debt

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I view it as the same as fishing lures. It doesn't have to catch a fish, just a fisherman

I can tell you that 25+ years of dealing with the public and retail has taught me that advertising works. Might not work for the educated buyer but the average buyer believes want he reads and takes it as gospel.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
No kiddin, just look at TV commercials and how incredibly inane, stupid and asinine they are. If they didn't work they wouldn't be there. The vast majority of TV ads are identical and say the same thing . . . Since your too stupid to know the difference send us your money. I really like the current one that says "if you already have Medicare supplementary insurance you can still send us your money, er by our rip off insurance.
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Ian

Notorious member
Are you looking for an heirloom-quality sporting piece or an appliance?

I own several guns which are appliances. Cheap, functional, reliable, ugly as hell, and if they fall over on the rocks I'm not going to cry about it. Same thing with vehicles. I have some antiques, but also some appliances that haul me back and forth to my job comfortably, reliably, and efficiently, and when are worn out are going to be scrapped rather than restored/rebuilt.

Having choices in the market is what matters most to me. Fortunately, the gun market still has a few small producers who are turning out the good stuff, and I hope that the kind of people who make those products will always be around.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Ah, Ian his on a key issue.

Difference between people who are true professionals and really care about quality and those who view it is JAFJ.

The guns of old were built by craftsmen, most today are built by laborers.
 

smokeywolf

Well-Known Member
Not enough people want to pay for quality these days. They don't want to pay for it in money or in time.
 

Cherokee

Medina, Ohio
Here is a thought...I have no proof one way or the other: Maybe in older days it was more personal pride and desire on the part of the worker to produce quality and customers did not frequently see cheap or shoddy products. No, guess not, there will always be grafters. Quality cost and many today do not want to pay.
 

smokeywolf

Well-Known Member
I should really add something to my post above.

If we were in an economy like the '50s and early '60s I think you'd see a lot more conscientious and demanding buyers.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
it took until the mid-50's for the stock market to recover from the depression.

I don't think it lies on the workers shoulders.
I'm sure to most of them now it's just a job, where you show up and put a few springs in an assembly then shove a pin through it to hold it all in place and drop it in another colored bin all damn day then go home.
there isn't a lot of opportunity to do a better job than the next guy, except when it comes to showing up on time, or in putting together 6 more units between breaks.
 

KeithB

Resident Half Fast Machinist
Like a lot of things discussed on this (and many other forums) we argue about something w/o defining what we mean by the terms used.

So tell me, what is your definition of quality?
 

Ian

Notorious member
"Quality" means to me something not disposable. Robert Pirsig wrote a whole meandering book on the subject, and actually about 2/3 of the way through managed to get the point across before he went off into left field again.
 

smokeywolf

Well-Known Member
Since we're talking about firearms; fit, finish, adherence to close tolerances on all features and quality (properties) of materials. When I look at 130 year old Winchesters, I'm astonished at the shapes, dimensions and finish they were able to accomplish.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
materials and finish.
opening/closing the action on a well fit shotgun like a Kreighoff versus a lower quality Mossburg is really like opening/closing the door on a Rolls Royce versus one on a Yugo or an old Chevy pick up.

on the quality items you just open and close it, no extra force is necessary, you don't have to do it twice, you can hear/feel the difference without looking, and you'll also be able to do it 100,000 times with a little care.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
What is quality? Great question.
Quality comes with price.
A Hyundai is good quality for the price. I got what I paid for. Built to be reliable.
I don't expect the level of fit and finish from a Hyundai that I get from a BMW.

I expect a firearm to be built with sufficient precision to be reasonably accurate at appropriate ranges. I want chambers on line with the bore, a stock with a decent finish, and metal work with no sharp edges, a reasonable polish, and decent bluing.

I suppose to me quality means getting a fair value for my money. I don't buy a Marlin and expect Winchester quality but by gawd if I spend for Winchester quality I better not get Marlin quality.

Yep, quality and price can't be separated.
 

Intheshop

Banned
"Quality" isn't and shouldn't be a fixed point if we're talking about craftsman and hand fitting.That idea is gasping for air as technology (CNC) becomes the norm.

What's the first thing that comes to mind referencing "hand fitted" and firearms?

Answer imbedded because we are learning how not to read but,would it be quality or dang,bet that's expensive?The latter is the fixed point.The quality comes in layers....but shouldn't be fixed.

How polished is "polished".... or rubbed as is more often the case with firearm vernacular?Does a 700 Rem even get wiped off?I doubt it,seriously.It's a function of the above,fixed vs moving target.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I don't buy a Marlin and expect Winchester quality but by gawd if I spend for Winchester quality I better not get Marlin quality.

I have pre 64 Winchesters and pre 64 Marlins lever guns. The Marlins were fit and finished far better than the Winchesters!

"Quality". Is that even the issue? Supreme quality in anything is not the choice of the majority of the buying public, never has been, never will be. "Better quality for the price" is what sells. Example- Toyota cars and especially light trucks in the mid to late 80's/early 90's vs domestic light trucks of that era. Toys would go 200-300K or more with basically nothing in the way of issues or parts outside of consumables. Domestic cars and trucks of the day were still 100-150K vehicles. But a Toy wasn't a Rolls Royce, and truth be told I don't know that I've ever heard of people putting 300K on a Rolls. They sure are finished nice though.

Back in the day of hand fit and finished firearms a guy had a 22, a deer rifle, a shotgun and maybe a handgun. He didn't do like we do now and have 14 "deer" rifles, 3 "elk" rifles, 7 "varmint" rifles, 8 rifles dedicated to target shooting, an AR defense rifle or 3, 11 surplus military rifles of various vintage, 7 shotguns for everything from duck to woodcock to clays, half a dozen or more 22's and other rimfires, 27 handguns for everything from deer to steel to defense to cowboy action to simply having the biggest, baddest recoiling monster at the range! We weren't a consumer society back in the day of hand fitted Colts, Smiths and Parkers. Not like now. That's a big part of the reason you have Hi Points and Keltecs and plastic Remingtons. We can't afford a Rolls and we can't afford a hand fit Smith Triple Lock. We couldn't back in the day either, not 90% of us. The few that could either only had the one gun or they were so well off that money wasn't an issue.

Times change.
 

Tony

Active Member
In his book, The Custom Revolver, Hamilton Bowen made the point that S&W revolvers of the late 19th and first half of the 20th centuries were highly regarded for their bluing. He stated this was a result of the very high quality of the polishing then available. That level of polishing skill, according to Bowen, no longer exists to any appreciable extent. Even if it did, a very small fraction of the firearms buying public could or would afford it. It saddens me a bit to know what I want in a high end firearm and realize that I can no longer afford it.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Some "cheap" parts are actually not a quality problem like assumed.
Look at what Ruger has done with casting parts instead of machining from a billet of forging. MIM is producing good parts at a fraction of the cost yet is regarded by many as "cheap".
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I have 2 or 3 rifles that desperately need to go to a good restoration shop like Turnbull. A Marlin 18...91? 94?, the 22 lever, forerunner of the 39, for one. It's the deluxe version far as I can see. I have another in 32-20, think that's the 94. Checked with a really good shop just for lining the barrels. No way I can swing it, much less sending either out to Turnbull. Good work is really expensive, same as it was 100 years ago.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
I saw a triangular sign. Three corners had "Faster", "Better" and "Cheaper", one on each corner.

In the middle it said "Pick two." I always liked that sign, figured it explained a lot about making all
sorts of "stuff". A Russian M91/30 is a good example. You can have one nice rifle or three
REALLY ugly rifles that work. Your choice.....and the Germans were pouring over the steppes. Looks like
a failed 8th grade shop project, but it will work.

And Bret - except for the shotguns....have you been sneaking around in my basement? :rolleyes::)
Post #35 hits pretty close to home for some of us gun cranks.

Bret, - have you ever seen a Turnbull gun "in the flesh"? The first I saw,my jaw dropped,
and I was a bit disoriented. It was a real Win 92, but it was NEW and PERFECT and GORGEOUS,
but it was a REAL Win 92, they are old and beat.... does not compute. Next to it was a Win 73,
same condition. Looked up at the guy at the gun show table after a couple of minutes....it was Turnbull himself,
we had a short chat, had no idea who he was (many years ago) but was in awe of his work, and told
him so. Like he didn't already know. :)

Bill
 
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