Savage Model 99

[Ian]

Got it back together, minus quite a bit of crusty, 100 year old grunge that had been ignored by the last few people to take it apart. I can now say with authority that the action and most of the barrel had been cold-blued. The lever still has some vestiges of color case-hardened finish on the curved part that goes up inside the action. I sweated on the front sight base....backwards. Oops. Next time I should wear my reading glasses. It's coming off again anyway so no big deal.

The buttstock has the correct SN, as does the butt plate (hand scratched on the butt plate), but it's broken in three places and been super-glued together. Couldn't find the SN for the forearm, but it looks to have been cut from the same piece of wood as the back. The wood was just finished-over with some kind of varnish, the original finish wasn't even stripped. At least the barrel channel in the forearm wasn't gooped up with over-run.

One more thing, the stock bolt was 5" overall length. I didn't write it down so I'm posting it here while I'm thinking about it, will be necessary to know when ordering a new stock.

 

[fiver]

I'm not sure where I picked that info up.
I'm going somewhat from memory, but the savage company was about to close unless something was done to show they had something 'new and better'.
I know they were running a 190gr bullet in original ammo cause I have seen it and spoke with some in Canada that have used it on moose and such.

 

[Kevin Stenberg]

Being a U tube expert. I did manage to tune the trigger mechanism on my grandson's 99. Once I got to looking at the trigger parts it was very easy even for me to decrease the trigger pull to a comfortable weight and smooth things out.

 

[RicinYakima]

Arthur Savage's design is elegantly simple, arcs of circles and straight lines. Did you know that once his company was a success, and he was well to do, he resigned as CEO in 1905 and moved west to pursue oil drilling equipment? I think they are beautiful except for the "birds beck" on the fore end. But, you sell what will sell, the market is the king.

 

[oscarflytyer]

The 303 Savage is nominally 30 cal, not 311. Not sure if that's what you meant, but there it is.

Bret - guess I learn something new every day. I thought the 303 Savage was ~.311. Never had one to play with. Thanx

 

[Ian]

The schnabel is one of the more redeeming qualities to me, oddly.

Since it took all afternoon for the patches to dry, I didn't have time to load or shoot any. I just now made a dummy round with the bullets sized to .312" and the "throat" will take the patched AM 30-160P well past maximum magazine length with no real engraving going on. The lands go clear to the end of the chamber, but the whole mess seems oversized, regardless of how it may have been cut originally. On the muzzle end, the .303" muzzle gauge I turned for my well-worn, MicroGroove 336 is a slightly loose fit in this Savage's muzzle, so I had to make another to indicate bore center in the lathe this afternoon that measured just a hair under .304". After the ravages of corrosive primers and time, what it seems I have as a .303-30 , and Dan's suggestion to try shooting some larger bullets for groups is definitely on the mark. I might actually try to shoot these patched bullets for groups instead of just polishing bore, but I'll have to set up a target at about 35 yards in order to hit my backstop at 50, unless dressing the muzzle takes care of it shooting 2' high.

 

[Bret4207]

The 190 was the standardized load. IIRC I still have 2 boxes of factory Winchester 190gr Silvertips, the last I ever saw anywhere, and that had to be 20 years back. I've seen reference to several companies loading it with 180's back in it's heyday, say 1899-1910, and others loading it with everything from 170's down to 85-ish "gallery loads". I've never actually seen any of this ammo personally and perhaps some of it was like some of the stuff we've allegedly been offered that no one ever saw on a shelf anywhere. I forget if it was Kephart or Haines or Crossman or who, but one of the big name writers back then really had a thing for the 303 and wrote quite a bit about it. How much of it was bought and paid for prose I don't know. I'm sure it happened then just as it does now. They were all in love with the 22 Hi Power a few years later and swore it was the ticket for everything from turkeys to tigers, so some of the scribbling has to be viewed with a skeptical eye. As I noted earlier, I've got books that say the Winchester 30-30 was to be loaded with jacketed .309 bullets. Could be a misprint, could be someones caliper was off, could be the measured bullets were .3085 and someone rounded up. Who knows? I do know the 99 was relatively stouter than the 94 Win and could have taken a somewhat hotter load. But I've seen very little in the way of advertising touting any velocity of any cartridges in the 1895-1905 era. When smokeless first hit the market it was said to "produce astounding speeds", etc. but there were few lines written specifying exactly what "astounding" meant.

Bah! What's it matter now? My 303 99 will pop an RCBS 30-180FN into nice round groups around 2000fps using altered 220 Swift brass and do it for as long as I can stand getting pounded with that crescent steel butt plate. Going hotter is certainly possible, but with that butt plate it's not a fun journey!

 

[Bret4207]

The schnabel is one of the more redeeming qualities to me, oddly.

Since it took all afternoon for the patches to dry, I didn't have time to load or shoot any. I just now made a dummy round with the bullets sized to .312" and the "throat" will take the patched AM 30-160P well past maximum magazine length with no real engraving going on. The lands go clear to the end of the chamber, but the whole mess seems oversized, regardless of how it may have been cut originally. On the muzzle end, the .303" muzzle gauge I turned for my well-worn, MicroGroove 336 is a slightly loose fit in this Savage's muzzle, so I had to make another to indicate bore center in the lathe this afternoon that measured just a hair under .304". After the ravages of corrosive primers and time, what it seems I have as a .303-30 , and Dan's suggestion to try shooting some larger bullets for groups is definitely on the mark. I might actually try to shoot these patched bullets for groups instead of just polishing bore, but I'll have to set up a target at about 35 yards in order to hit my backstop at 50, unless dressing the muzzle takes care of it shooting 2' high.

I like the Schnabel too, just as I like "perch belly" and "fawns foot" profiles. It fit the era.

Ian, have you gone after the bore with some relatively aggressive products? I know there are chemical products made to remove jacket and powder fouling these days. My standby is still 4/0 steel wool and ATF. Just wondered if you'd made sure it was as bad as you think. I went through this with a Stevens 44 in 32-20. It was about like your pics or worse, even after I spent a lot of time on it. But you gotta check, right?

 

[quicksylver]

Slightly off topic..I have a lot of .303 Savage "stuff Late factrory ammo( i'll measure the bullets).., cases ,receiver etc..if any one is in need...sorry Ian sold my factory stock set.
BTW....barrels show up on ebay ocassionally...Oh and don't forget to consider the 32-40 if relining...

 

[Barn]

Kevin Stenberg --- Please provide us with more information on the trigger job.

 

[fiver]

you could have got away with some 'advertising' back then too.
who was gonna check your velocity numbers?

I wonder if the 308/311 thing got started by a writer measuring the barrel on his rifle and finding it to be 308 and made the assumption that a 303 meant 311?
I have seen the story go both directions of it having, and it not having 311 bullets.

 

[RicinYakima]

If you are still considering changing calibers, make sure you can start to feed the case from your brass spool. The only ones that will interchange with the 30/30 are the 32 special and the 219 Zipper, at least that I have seen work. FWIW, Ric

 

[Ian]

I've pretty much settled on keeping it a .30-30 unless I decide to have it bored to .32. From what I read, the magazine spools are persnickety in the extreme and have near zero tolerance for change.

 

[earlmck]

Okay, I'm going from memory after researching this heavily 14-16 years ago. SOME 303 factory ammo MAY have been made with .311 bullets, but they appear to have been few and far between and I've never spoken to or corresponded with anyone that ever had an example in hand. As far as the 30-30 goes, some of the early loadings used a 180 gr bullet (and some of the early 303 Savage ammo was listed as having a 180gr bullet) also and the bullet was listed as .309 , so I'd take what the old books say with a grain of salt. I've looked at a lot of old manuals and bought quite a few of them in researching this stuff. IMO, the time in which the 303 Sav was actually using a .311 bullet was very, very brief if it occurred at all. You'd think there'd be some Savge ammo surviving that had the .311's if they were ever actually produced in any number. I've also read, a great number of times, that Savage 303's had .311 bores and I've seen people in print swear they measured slugs showing a groove diameter of .311. I dunno, I kinda doubt it. We're talking almost 120 years back now and depending on advertising documents and old magazine articles for most of this stuff. Some swear the .311 is gospel, some of us are at least a little skeptical. In the end, the 303 had a real good rep as a stopper on bear, moose, etc. Mattern says over and over that the 303 Savage was a better penetrator than the 30-30. Real world differences? Your guess is as good as mine.

I have two of the 303 Savages, a 1904 one and a 1911 one. They both have .308 barrels. I inherited some factory ammo with the older rifle (the ammo not all that old!) which was 180 grain core-lokt Remington rounds and a few 190 grain Winchester silvertips. The 190 grainers chronod at 1900 fps which would probably shoot through a moose. The silvertips mike .3075" but the core-lokts go .309". Both appeared to me to be loaded to fairly low pressure levels judging from the primer protrusion after firing.

 

[Ian]

I'm getting close to throwing in the towel on this one. After having another good go with 0000 steel wool and Ed's per Bret's suggestion, I shot 15 paper patched bullets over 9 grains of Unique. Most of them yawed and after the first couple they started flying everywhere. Granted, this was just for polishing the bore, but the bore is do dang rough that the patches shredded a little and I got some leading. After cleaning all that out, it appears that zero polishing took place and that more metal is crumbling and flaking out of the bore. The good news is the first few were printing a more sane POI, almost perfectly on at 25 yards, so the crown job helped.

Anybody got a decent, lightweight .30-caliber barrel for sale cheap?

 

[fiver]

that's one of the good things about the paper.
it either starts cleaning things up or it shows you totally got junk to work with.

 

[Ian]

It sure did. So I got a barrel lined up to whittle on.

 

[Bret4207]

I have two of the 303 Savages, a 1904 one and a 1911 one. They both have .308 barrels. I inherited some factory ammo with the older rifle (the ammo not all that old!) which was 180 grain core-lokt Remington rounds and a few 190 grain Winchester silvertips. The 190 grainers chronod at 1900 fps which would probably shoot through a moose. The silvertips mike .3075" but the core-lokts go .309". Both appeared to me to be loaded to fairly low pressure levels judging from the primer protrusion after firing.

Yupper! IIRC Mattern has loads for the 303 listed as "suitable for shooting from one end to the other of a northbound moose!". The 303 has never been loaded "hot" in the last 60-75 years that I know of. With a decent 99 and good brass I'm sure someone could surpass traditional 30-30 velocities using 150/170 gr bullets. But to what end? The 303 isn't one of those rounds you need a scope for so you can shoot at 350 yards. No matter what you do it's still in the 30-30/35 Rem class and limited by trajectory to woods shooting ranges, lets be generous and call it 175-200 yards and admit we all know that is stretching things by probably 50-75 yards. You just aren't going to flatten that out all that much with an extra 200-250 fps, even with a pointy copper clad bullet. Nothing wrong with that at all IMO.

 

[Bret4207]

I'm getting close to throwing in the towel on this one. After having another good go with 0000 steel wool and Ed's per Bret's suggestion, I shot 15 paper patched bullets over 9 grains of Unique. Most of them yawed and after the first couple they started flying everywhere. Granted, this was just for polishing the bore, but the bore is do dang rough that the patches shredded a little and I got some leading. After cleaning all that out, it appears that zero polishing took place and that more metal is crumbling and flaking out of the bore. The good news is the first few were printing a more sane POI, almost perfectly on at 25 yards, so the crown job helped.

Anybody got a decent, lightweight .30-caliber barrel for sale cheap?

You checked, you ran it through the wringer, now you know.

 

[earlmck]

I've pretty much settled on keeping it a .30-30 unless I decide to have it bored to .32. From what I read, the magazine spools are persnickety in the extreme and have near zero tolerance for change.

I think the "zero tolerance" rumor may be overblown. I have one old 99 that I picked up at auction cheap because nobody in these parts wants a 303 Savage, which was the marking on the barrel. On getting it home I discovered it has been rebored/rechambered to 35 Remington. The mag spool (unaltered as far as I can tell) feeds 35 Rem, although not as smoothly as it does a 303 Sav cartridge. So I'm betting you could get JES to rebore to 35/303 and have a wonderful 35 cal cast bullet platform which feeds just fine.