Shooting gongs with lead?

KeithB

Resident Half Fast Machinist
Most likely true here Brad. If I was going to make gongs out of this stuff I would cut it with a water jet and use mechanical fasteners to attach it to the stand.
 
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waco

Springfield, Oregon
He tells me it's a no-no to arc weld or cut with a torch as it loses its strength. Is that so?
I had read that somewhere as well. All of mine are cut on a laser as opposed to plasma. I imagine water jet would do well also.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Only the rifles with jbullets will be a problem with torch cut, and then only at the very edges. I think many
of the commercial AR plates are cut with plasma torch and may have a very slight softening of the
extreme edge, but plasma heat is very localized and it is not a practical problem.

Around here all the gun shows have guys selling AR500 steel gongs with various kinds of hanging
attachments for reasonable prices. I have shot AR500 at 40 yds with FMT .223 as a test. At the
tip there is a tiny 'pip', maybe .010-.020" diam and maybe a couple thousandths deep, can barely feel with
a finger tip, essentially zero damage. Less with FMJ .308. .303 Brit with Jbullets will be similar to .308.
Some commercial guys have cool links to permit you to make up a hanging a frame with crossbar from
black iron gas pipe, just sliding pieces through their connectors. Easy to set up and replace when damaged.

All with take cast will be negligible damage.

We shot on mild steel for decades in our IPSC club, pistol only, but eventually the 3/8" plates started
dishing and developed pockmarks from .38 Super jbullets at 1300-1500 fps, so they had to go. .223
will punch through 3/8 mild steel "falling plates" without knocking them over. A friend discovered this,
fortunately with his own plates, which were used only for handguns - before and after that 'test'.

The damage to a 3/8" mild steel plate with a 12 ga slug is severe. 1" diam moon crater, 3/8" deep, big bulge
on back. Local PD, without permission, used our IPSC club pistol plates with slugs at local range, got to buy us new
ones, but only after we complained to owner of range, who checked books on who rented that particular
range that week, only the PD, doing shotgun training. PD just put the ruined plates back and said nothing.
Eventually they were banned from the range for damaging everything.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Bill, try a 30 cal bullet at 2400 fps on that mild steel. Speed kills.

Khornet was once given a chunk of the lower edge of a snow plow blade. Nice and hard, it wasn't touch by cast a bit. It did break after around 100 shots as it was brittle.
I have some of the plates that hold rails to the ties. Those things are tough. Cast won't really marr it and a jacketed 270 load doesn't penetrate all the way thru.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Yes, Brad, I have no doubt that speed, even with lead is the issue.

Pistols only, esp .45 ACP (under 1000) are easy, mild steel is fine, by the time there were a lot of 1500fps .38 Super, we were
getting tiny pockmarks, but in club use, that rapidly dishes the plates - backwards, perhaps 'crowning' is a better
term. Stretches the front, longer front surface bows the plate out towards shooter at center.

AR500 is the real solution for rifle fire.

Bill
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Does that dishing lend to more fragments coming back towards the shooter? I wonder if swapping sides being impacts from time to time would keep the dishing to a minimum?

For the price these days AR500 is what I went with even for handgun use. I know it can handle anything I decide to hit it with.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Dishing outward like that doesn't push fragments back. You will always get a certain amount of splashback on steel, no matter
what. IPSC rules forbid shooting steel closer than 10 yds, a good idea. If you shoot steel long enough, you WILL
get hit with fragments. They can break the skin on a face, barely. Sting pretty good on jeans covered legs. Eye
protection is always needed but especially for steel shooting up close. I have been hit many times, even at 15 yds,
sometimes a bit more. But that is from hundreds of IPSC matches.

The worst for bounce back is bowling pins and .38 Spl LRN. I have many reports from friends who shoot a lot more
pins than I ever did that this happens. Our pin shooters finally outlawed .38 LRN ammo for pin shooting. Whole
bullets coming back, moderate velocity, but very frightening.

12 ga slugs can be scary, too. I was observing a shotgun match, they were shooting rifle turkeys at about 30 yds, with slugs.
We marveled at the impressive authority that those really heavy turkeys were being slapped down, and how great gobs of
grass and dirt were thrown up from the berm by misses. Turkeys were set very close to berm, so we were all
well downrange. After one shot there was a loud whirring as a fragment came back and passed me, then a very
loud WHACK behind me. There was a 1/4" plywood target board behind us, since we were way downrange. Upon
inspection, the grey weathered plywood showed an obvious new hole, with the exit splinters on the uprange side.
The hole was a slot about 1.5"x 1/4" thru 1/4 plywood. :eek::eek::eek:

We left the range at that point. These were mint condition, heavy rifle steel, no dents or anything. Still put back
most or all of a slug. Yikes! We were off at the side, so it came off at perhaps 30-40 degrees from shooter axis, so
shooter was in no danger. Observers were.

Bill
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Dishing of the target isn't a major concern but cratering is a HUGE deal. When the target gets cratered and that crater gets hit it directs bullet fragments straight back to the firing line. In smallbore silhouette the rule book had the chicken targets set at 25 yards, fragments on the firing line was so common the NRA changed the rules several years ago to put the smallbore chickens at 40 yards. In big bore the chickens are at 50 yards and a cratered target directs fragments back fairly often. Eye protection is mandatory for everyone on the firing line, shooters and spectators, NO exceptions. Smooth targets don't suffer from blow back but rather outward in a 360 degree radius. I used to keep grapefruit sized granite rocks under the 50 yard swinger chicken and fragments fairly quickly reduced it to sand.
.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Yes, exactly. WHen the PD cratered our plates with slugs, they were immediately decommissioned. Later had them
welded up which proved adequate with low velocity, but would be worthless for high velocity due to the weld being
soft.
Bounceback is serious. As to the normal radial splatter, on the indoor range, we had to have steel panels on the
concrete side where we put steel plates within 3 or 4 yds, it would just chew up the concrete, otherwise.

Bill
 

Canuck Bob

Active Member
Thanks learned a lot. AR500 1/2 inch for me. Warnings about gong distance is real, 50 yds 22LR and 32-20, 100 yds the rest for me. Too slow can be an equal hazard. Splatter is no joke and support system can take a real beating.

Up closer the tin can will be used. Shooting tin cans is a very fond memory of the farm life when young. My earliest reactive target!
 

Ian

Notorious member
Bill, try a 30 cal bullet at 2400 fps on that mild steel. Speed kills.

19 bhn at 2400 fps will punch right through a lot of things, even stuff that jacketed target bullets won't faze.

Good to know about the craters, I never realized the dynamics of the face shape of the steel, will heed the warning on that one.

The only thing I can add to this is don't shoot at wood with low-velocity round nose ammo, similar to the bowling pin phenomena. Lots of people make backstops out of old tires, RR ties, landscape timber, stacks of logs, etc. and this can be very dangerous due to spitting whole bullets back at you. Probably won't kill you, but a 250-grain .45 Colt bullet coming back at you at 3-400 fps can shatter shin bones, kneecaps, break fingers, and might be really bad if it hit a person in the throat or forehead.

Regarding the durability of Grade 8 bolts for retaining gongs, it will take a few hits to ruin the heads and bolts are cheap, so buy a few extra. Splash damage to bolt heads will eat them away eventually, again, just replace as necessary, a 1/2x1" bolt is about 50 cents and Vice Grip pliers will hold the mangled head while the locknut is removed from the back.
 

gman

Well-Known Member
I made the mistake of shooting some heat treated 19 bhn 35-200 from my marlin at 1900 fps that drilled holes through 7/16" mild steel plate.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
One of the oddest things I have seen is a friend making the mistake of trying out his Mini14 on his pistol plates.....
Shot one, missed, so shot it again, still didn't fall. Shot the one next to it, it didn't fall either. He said, "What the hell?"
and walked up to look at the plates. OOPS. Three nice drilled holes without knocking over hinged 6" plates on
a falling plate rack. Amazing that it can punch through a plate but not transfer enough push to tip it over.

He did it to his own plates, so short feedback loop. He welded them up and stopped shooting mild steel with
high velocity bullets.

Bill
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
I had a great idea about 15 yr ago I built a bunch rocker targets with plywood rockers a 4x4 post and assorted target faces . These ranged doubled up 3/4 to RR slip plates . A work place scrap so read this free reactive targets with a self reset at the simplest possible level and way cheaper than the self healing spinners . I had a Taurus 66 357 at that time and had been gifted 2 boxes of mixed 90-95 gr HPs intended for 380 . Some were Gold Dots but there weren't enough of any particular bullet to make much more than tryouts for any of them . As a note her 7.0 gr of Unique makes Cheerios out of 90 gr GD in a 357 case . I'd been shooting some plated SWC from West Coast cast bullets , it was before the enlightenment and before I had any clue about slugging throats etc . I was just a case stuffer then .
I'd shot a few of the max load 38+P in 357 cases with good accuracy of the 158 SWC so I started shooting the rockers through the plywood faces and nothing so I go check and there's neat round holes right where they should be . Small chips to nickle craters on the back side . Hmm well that's not going to be humane . So I switched to the hopped up HPs I hit the first rocker at 35 yd and laid it over stuck on its back , no exit hole . So I shot 1 at 25 yd and knocked a 10 penny nail through the 1.5" of plywood and out the back side of the 4x4 it didn't exit but there was no questions about where bullet was . . Now we all know that a 900 fps 158 is at least equal to the ftlb of a 90 gr at 1100 fps . Bullet construction and shape are factors also . It was such a trip that the 158 didn't leave enough energy to move the rocker but the 90 gr that didn't exit knocked it over .

Wood isn't meat . Penetration is just as important as energy deposit . If you know it won't go clear through deposit enough energy to break stuff and make it bleed a lot even if a drop never hits the ground . It's ok to have pencil holes as long as the stuff between the holes is at least chunky 90 wt .

Big energy and flat trajectories mean zip if you don't leave it on or about the target whether it's dinner or plates .

For what it's worth a 27 cal 130 gr FP cast at 2100 fps MV will punch 1/4" crs and 1" of plywood at 110 yd leaving about a 30 cal hole . I was impressed .
 

Kenneth Dahl

New Member
While we are talking about shooting steel I have something that might be interesting for those that want a cheap steel target for shooting lead at. About a year ago I found a broken piece of leaf spring from a large truck on the highway in front of my house. The steel was about 4" X 10" and it laid around my shop to where I was about to throw it out and thought I would try and drill a hole through one end to hang it for a target at my range. It was tough drilling but not impossible and it now resides along side my AR500 targets and is holding up very well when using lead bullets. I hope someone else breaks a spring in front of my place.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Good tip.

We have truck springs stacked like cordwood behind the shop, some of them are broken but most are still too long to ship (they tend to break through the tie bolt hole in the center) or I'd offer you as many as you wanted. Mack springs in particular are just about indestructible.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Won't fit in a flat rate box, eh?

Springs should work very well. Not too hard and brittle.
 

Canuck Bob

Active Member
On the farm we used old banged up Baby Moon hubcaps, bring back memories old timers! They were hung like gongs and lasted a long time for 22 plinking. Designed as pass through targets they were lots of fun and sure separated the offhand shooters at 50 paces. My local Pick a Part has piles of caps for cheap, hmmm.