Sorry, but I ain't buying it.

[fiver]

another way to test would be to use a Winchester primer and then a federal primer, they use different compounds.
aluminum for the federal, and lead for the Winchester.

 

[USSR]

another way to test would be to use a Winchester primer and then a federal primer, they use different compounds.
aluminum for the federal, and lead for the Winchester.

Ah, did not know that.

Don

 

[Brad]

Pete hit on a big point. Even if lead is "vaporized" on firing as long as it stays as elemental lead it isn't a huge deal.
If we were shooting lead oxide bullets we would be in big trouble.
Elemental lead is not absorbed in the human gut and is very poorly oxidized by our stomach acid. Not an issue.
Bird, like waterfowl, were an issue because they picked up lead peelers that had been sitting in the open environment for a period of time and had developed an oxide coating. They then ground those pellet in their gizzard which ensured maximum absorption in their gut.
Good hygiene is number one in preventing lead absorption for us. Indoor ranges are probably a bigger hazard than casting. I would venture a guess that tumblers and the associated dust is more of a hazard than casting as well.

 

[RBHarter]

Back in the 1920s there was a study done , probably barbaric by modern standards . I have it in a water fowl book . Basically they fed several species of ducks controlled quantities of lead shot to see how long it took for the duck to die of lead poisoning . Pintail and Mallards were the big ducks and at 6# took 6 days to die from just 6 pellets of #6 . All those 6s are suspect I suppose . In any case it would work with most fowl as the shot is picked up and ground like small round pebbles in the gizzard . However , the reason I doubt the condor science isn't because I don't think a 25-30lb bird wouldn't gorge on a gut pile and pick up a bullet . It's because I don't think there are enough gut piles with bullets in them for them to ingest the 3-10 pieces of 00B sized lead during the hunting season . Even if the birds made a steady diet of coyotes killed and left I doubt there would be sufficient lead left in the coyote to poison 1 in any reasonable length of time .

 

[Ian]

These: https://www.federalpremium.com/ammu...n-eagle/american-eagle-indoor-range-training/

The flash holes of the TMF-primed cases are considerably larger than normal.

 

[fiver]

I think those [NF-NP] type primers only come in small because they still ain't got the large ones to work yet.

 

[oscarflytyer]

oscarflytyer, "And fwiw, I think all the dead birds from eating lead is hokey BS, but who knows." I know exactly and precisely. Bottom feeding water birds than ingest oxidized lead shot into their craw will get lead oxide poisoning. Scavengers that ingest lead bullets will pass the lead with their stool, unless your bullets had white lead oxide on them. The science has been there for 40 years.

Fair enough Ric. But how many? Is it onesies twosies? Or are there mass deaths due to it? Same question with the Condors. Seems to me, they would pass the lead if the ate it, based on what you said above. Asking because I really do not know.

 

[fiver]

I realize gut shooting deer is a time honored tradition in some places.
but personally I consider it a complete bullet failure if my bullets don't exit and plow their energy right into the planet.
I have seen condors in the wild, not a single one of them was carrying a shovel.

 

[RicinYakima]

Fair enough Ric. But how many? Is it onesies twosies? Or are there mass deaths due to it? Same question with the Condors. Seems to me, they would pass the lead if the ate it, based on what you said above. Asking because I really do not know.

Birds that are bottom feeders are most susceptible, ones that eat plant life off the bottom. The studies done in the 1960's in MN and Wisconsin had about a 5% mortality rate over heavily hunted ponds with lead shot. They had been hunted for about 80 years, so the shot was heavily oxidized. These studies lead to the banning of lead for waterfowl hunting, just because it didn't sink deep enough into the mud to be safe. The falsity of the condor study is that there a few examples of condor poisoning. And those are checked just back ground lead levels for any scavenger on the rung below the top of the food chain, i.e. hawks and coyotes. So CA says it must be from bullets, not the thousands of pounds of tetraethyl lead that came out of car exhaust pipes from 1927 thru 1972. Lead is relatively safe for humans after puberty as a metal, it is the oxide of the metal that is absorbed through the digestive tract that is problem, i.e. kids chewing on toys with leaded paints.

 

[Bret4207]

Dont think the green copper oxides harmful? Most metal oxides are...

We use Copper Oxides as a wormer. It's poison. Think people are goig to give up using copper? Nope...

 

[Bret4207]

The science has been there for 40 years.

Which science? The same science that knew for a fact DDT wasn't proven to cause cancer and that it had nothing to do with Eagles dying off that was used to outlaw DDT? The science that said silicone breast implants were leaking and causing cancer? The Piltdown Chicken? The science that said butter and lard were certain death if you ate them? Cold fusion? The science that said power lines cause cancer? Einsteins "Static Universe"? Science is only as good as the people using it, and it can be "used" to do things the science doesn't support. I'm not saying eating lead is a great idea, but I'm extremely skeptical of simply depending on "the science" without more information on any agendas in play. The problem with Eagles and Condors was surely lead, but it was lead from people shooting Eagles and Condors.

 

[USSR]

Science is only as good as the people using it, and it can be "used" to do things the science doesn't support. I'm not saying eating lead is a great idea, but I'm extremely skeptical of simply depending on "the science" without more information on any agendas in play.

Ain't that the truth. As Beria told Stalin "Show me the man and I'll tell you his crime".

Don

 

[Eutectic]

So CA says it must be from bullets, not the thousands of pounds of tetraethyl lead that came out of car exhaust pipes from 1927 thru 1972. Lead is relatively safe for humans after puberty as a metal, it is the oxide of the metal that is absorbed through the digestive tract that is problem, i.e. kids chewing on toys with leaded paints.

I think we should not limit the villain to just 'oxides'. I think lead compounds is a better description. The formula below is what happens when Tetraethyllead burns

When (CH3CH2)4Pb burns, it produces not only carbon dioxide and water, but also lead:

(CH3CH2)4Pb + 13 O2 → 8 CO2 + 10 H2O + Pb

This lead can oxidize further to give species such as lead oxide:

2 Pb + O2 → 2 PbO

Seems the tailpipe produces lead that can oxidize as well now or later.......

But Tetraethyllead as a compound used at refineries way back is a low viscosity solvent-like compound that is also aromatic. (I've been told) We were taught it absorbed through your skin or lungs rapidly and could kill you. Refineries have had deaths from exposure is why we had such stringent safety requirements....

A small little voice 50 years ago would tell you not to wash parts in gasoline because of the lead content.... But no one listened! Good that the amounts were very small as any of us with 'vintage' have gotten leaded gas on us! I've got quite 'wet' from it (leaded gasoline) at the refinery actually.

Pete

 

[oscarflytyer]

Birds that are bottom feeders are most susceptible, ones that eat plant life off the bottom. The studies done in the 1960's in MN and Wisconsin had about a 5% mortality rate over heavily hunted ponds with lead shot. They had been hunted for about 80 years, so the shot was heavily oxidized. These studies lead to the banning of lead for waterfowl hunting, just because it didn't sink deep enough into the mud to be safe. The falsity of the condor study is that there a few examples of condor poisoning. And those are checked just back ground lead levels for any scavenger on the rung below the top of the food chain, i.e. hawks and coyotes. So CA says it must be from bullets, not the thousands of pounds of tetraethyl lead that came out of car exhaust pipes from 1927 thru 1972. Lead is relatively safe for humans after puberty as a metal, it is the oxide of the metal that is absorbed through the digestive tract that is problem, i.e. kids chewing on toys with leaded paints.

Ric - the 5% you mention. Not o mix apples and oranges, but... What would the mortality rate have been regardless of the hunting/lead? And the apples/oranges part - I remember seeing a study that said (iirc) that the mortality of doves would be almost exactly the same, hunted or not. Hunters were def not decimating the flocks. If anything, they were keeping them more healthy.

And I do appreciate your insight/knowledge. I just don't have it in this area. Also, like you said, potentially a lot of "treat the symptoms (ban lead bullets due to lead poisoning)," not determine the root "problem" of which lead it is - such as from gasoline, etc.

 

[fiver]

I'm still trying to figure out how the duck numbers were so much higher in the 50's and 70's than they were at their highest point in the 90's which was several years after the steel shot implement.
I think someone overlooked the detrimental effects of steel and iron oxide on the body.
steel poisoning is much faster and more severely debilitating.
maybe the steel pellets are harder for the bird to grind up and pass through but I bet the rust surely isn't.

 

[RicinYakima]

Not to confuse the lead issue for waterfowl and condors, but lower huntable populations of ducks in the East and Mid-West fly ways are mostly from loss of habitat. Giant agri-business rather than family farms, people building houses on small parcels in the country, etc., etc. On the west coast it is the thirty year drought, man caused, that made famers and ranchers change their water use patterns so there is less open water in the spring and fall. Here in Eastern WA, we have millions of Snow Geese, millions of Coots and Pelicans. Lots of big water from dams and reservoirs, but no small ponds for Mallard or Teal.

All, as in 100%, of water is owned by the State in Washington. Priority is; 1. famers with water rights prior to 1906, 2. salmon, 3. wells for houses, 4. agriculture, 5. municipal water systems, 6. other fish and wildlife. The Fed's may regulate the wet-lands and rivers, but the water belongs to the state. Every gallon of fresh water must be permitted by the state agency I used to work for.

Support Ducks Unlimited and Nature Conservation if you want more duck hunting.

 

[fiver]

support delta waterfowl.
they actually use the money for the right things.
DU spends far too much on hunting club projects that never support the average hunter.
Delta supports the actual nesting sights and removes predators

 

[Rally Hess]

Your 100% correct Fiver. I trapped two contracts for Delta in SD, and went to two in Canada as a trouble shooter helping trappers there. Duck nesting success is directly affected by the amount of predation on nests during nesting periods.

 

[Full.lead.taco]

Lead does not vaporize from the flames on the base of the bullet.

HOWEVER......................

A very significant amount of lead is atomized due to gas cutting, abrasion, etc. in the instance of even the best-fitting bullet.

How do I know this?

From shooting plain, lubricated bullets through suppressors. How significant is the quantity of lead dispersed into the air? Well, in fewer than 500 rounds of .45 ACP, in a carbine, the suppressor gained two ounces. In fewer than 800 rounds of .300 AAC Blackout, the suppressor gained 1.5 ounces. The lead alloy was deposited on the baffles and removed by scraping and chipping.

So I began powder-coating my bullets and many thousands of rounds later, have yet to gain any measurable amount of fouling in either suppressor.

Ian did you experience any increased weight from the excess lube that comes out the muzzle (and into the suppressor)? I found that I didn't get much lead in my suppressors, but did get some lube deposited into the baffles (after shooting many 300blk subs traditionally lubed). .22 cans were completely different--I got lead, carbon, and lube inside.

 

[Ian]

The only residue my lube left was some dry, white, powdery stuff near the baffle apertures from the soap. Nothing else other than caked lead/carbon mix which was the worst in the blast chamber, getting progressively less in each chamber forward.