Pb2au
Active Member
Alright, let's get started.
The purpose of this thread is not so much a "how to", but more of a "how I do".
The Vetterli rifle series is a pretty well documented series of rifles that have a following of people that for some strange reason go to great lengths to shoot a rifle that pretty much no cases are available for, little load data exists, and only a handful of molds make any sense to use.
That being said, I decided that it sounds like a project right in my wheel house.
I purchased a decent example of an 1878/81 model at the beginning of this year. For those not familiar, the Vetterli is in original form a rim fire rifle. As any ammo is long out of production, it is necessary to:
1) Convert the bolt to centerfire. (I won't go over this as it is better documented many times elsewhere on the interwebz)
2) Convert brass.
3) Select and cast a bullet to use.
The conversion of brass is not too painful. Two parent cases are popular, 348 Winchester and 8mm Lebel. I chose to use 348 win. It is in this step that you really need to consider carefully what bullet you want to use. Why? The reason is the rifle is sensitive to OAL for feeding. Anything over and under 2.2" and it will jam on the feeding. You bullet selection will have some bearing on the length you will need to trim your brass.
The bullet that has a lot of popularity for use is the Lee mold, C430-310-Rf.
I cast mine from a very soft alloy, not exactly dead soft, but around 8 BHN.
Barrel groove diameters can vary on these rifles, but most run around .428"-ish, with examples as high as .432" to, in my case .424". The throat is more like a funnel to accommodate fouling from older black powder service loads. I sized my bullets to .427" and let the barrel do the rest of the work.
Its weight is very close to the original service load, and the length plays well with the case, and ultimately the OAL. More on this in a moment.
Understanding that I would use the Lee mold, I had to do a bit of math.... Yeah I know, your teacher was right, you would need math as a grown up........ That math involved is this. Understanding that we need an OAL of 2.2", and knowing the length of the bullet, we can make some decisions about how long we need to trim the brass. Normal, standard length of the the 10.4x38 (.41) Swiss Rimfire case is 38mm. If we trim our brass to the length and use the lee bullet, we arrive to a situation where there is very little of the bullet supported by the neck of the case.
As a side note, the Lee mold is a gas check design, but I do not use a gas check in this application.
As a test, I trimmed a case to 44mm, (after doing some math to predict where the neck would end on the bullet) and this allowed the case mouth to land soundly on the top grease groove, while giving plenty of support to the bullet. A few dummy rounds were made up, and a feed test was performed with great success.
Load data:
Being a later production rifle, and after doing A LOT of research, a modest load of Unique was selected as the propellant. The earlier rifles I would not feel too warm and fuzzy doing this however. As a concurrent note, later production of Vetterli service ammo was indeed fueled with smokeless.
The Lee bullet was lubed with 50/50 beeswax and Vaseline.
You end up with a cartridge that looks like this:
Please ignore the bandage, a knife got in the way of my finger....
Accuracy.
Offhand shooting at around 60 yards proved this loading to be accurate enough to destroy clay pigeons. Proper bench work is next, with real groups measured being the goal. Recoil is modest. All in all, a huge amount of fun.
If anyone has any questions or comments, feel free to reach out, I will do my best to answer them.
Thanks,
Phil
The purpose of this thread is not so much a "how to", but more of a "how I do".
The Vetterli rifle series is a pretty well documented series of rifles that have a following of people that for some strange reason go to great lengths to shoot a rifle that pretty much no cases are available for, little load data exists, and only a handful of molds make any sense to use.
That being said, I decided that it sounds like a project right in my wheel house.
I purchased a decent example of an 1878/81 model at the beginning of this year. For those not familiar, the Vetterli is in original form a rim fire rifle. As any ammo is long out of production, it is necessary to:
1) Convert the bolt to centerfire. (I won't go over this as it is better documented many times elsewhere on the interwebz)
2) Convert brass.
3) Select and cast a bullet to use.
The conversion of brass is not too painful. Two parent cases are popular, 348 Winchester and 8mm Lebel. I chose to use 348 win. It is in this step that you really need to consider carefully what bullet you want to use. Why? The reason is the rifle is sensitive to OAL for feeding. Anything over and under 2.2" and it will jam on the feeding. You bullet selection will have some bearing on the length you will need to trim your brass.
The bullet that has a lot of popularity for use is the Lee mold, C430-310-Rf.
I cast mine from a very soft alloy, not exactly dead soft, but around 8 BHN.
Barrel groove diameters can vary on these rifles, but most run around .428"-ish, with examples as high as .432" to, in my case .424". The throat is more like a funnel to accommodate fouling from older black powder service loads. I sized my bullets to .427" and let the barrel do the rest of the work.
Its weight is very close to the original service load, and the length plays well with the case, and ultimately the OAL. More on this in a moment.
Understanding that I would use the Lee mold, I had to do a bit of math.... Yeah I know, your teacher was right, you would need math as a grown up........ That math involved is this. Understanding that we need an OAL of 2.2", and knowing the length of the bullet, we can make some decisions about how long we need to trim the brass. Normal, standard length of the the 10.4x38 (.41) Swiss Rimfire case is 38mm. If we trim our brass to the length and use the lee bullet, we arrive to a situation where there is very little of the bullet supported by the neck of the case.
As a side note, the Lee mold is a gas check design, but I do not use a gas check in this application.
As a test, I trimmed a case to 44mm, (after doing some math to predict where the neck would end on the bullet) and this allowed the case mouth to land soundly on the top grease groove, while giving plenty of support to the bullet. A few dummy rounds were made up, and a feed test was performed with great success.
Load data:
Being a later production rifle, and after doing A LOT of research, a modest load of Unique was selected as the propellant. The earlier rifles I would not feel too warm and fuzzy doing this however. As a concurrent note, later production of Vetterli service ammo was indeed fueled with smokeless.
The Lee bullet was lubed with 50/50 beeswax and Vaseline.
You end up with a cartridge that looks like this:
Please ignore the bandage, a knife got in the way of my finger....
Accuracy.
Offhand shooting at around 60 yards proved this loading to be accurate enough to destroy clay pigeons. Proper bench work is next, with real groups measured being the goal. Recoil is modest. All in all, a huge amount of fun.
If anyone has any questions or comments, feel free to reach out, I will do my best to answer them.
Thanks,
Phil
Last edited: