White powder on lead

[Roger Allen]

someone mentioned the lead oxide coating on lead in another forum so instead of hyjacking it into something it's not I figured ask you guys here

Now some lead will develop this lead oxide finish when storing the ingots outside where they can get moisture. I heard this stuff is typically way more dangerous to handle compared to clean lead or fresh cast lead

My question is "how much more dangerous"?

My normal habits may be to poor for my own good. I usually handle this stuff w my bare hands and wash my hands three times after I'm done doing what I'm doing. I thought that lead didn't really go through your skin because skin is a poor medium for absorption compared to nostrils, mouth, eyes, cuts. Should I change my ways before I seriously screw myself up or is skin still too poor of a medium of transfer for lead oxide

 

[Brad]

Hygiene is the key. Wash your hands AND change clothes. The oxides may get on pants or shirt and then be transferred to hands and mouth. Wash clothes right away and a shower isn't a bad idea either.
No food or drink, or smoking, while doing this stuff.

With basic precautions it is pretty safe. Just don't be dumb.

 

[Ian]

Lead oxide is far more dangerous than elemental lead, even if ingested, because the oxides are more easily absorbed by the body. Glen is an expert in this field, perhaps he can weigh in, but for now be SUPER careful around that white powdery stuff and make sure none of it gets into any of your bodily orifices or is tracked to doorknobs, faucet handles, toilet flush handle, or anywhere you or anyone else can contaminate themselves (for example don't get any lead oxide on the bathroom doorknob which you or a child will handle after washing before going to eat fried chicken), because apparently it only takes a trace quantity of the stuff getting in your body to cause problems.

 

[Rick]

Your right Roger, lead will not absorb through skin but lead oxide is far more dangerous than a bar of lead because it is so much easier to get into you, breathing, eyes, nose, mouth etc. The most important thing to remember is that as bad for you as lead oxide is it's far more dangerous to kids 7 years and younger. Do whatever it takes to keep kids away from areas this lead has been. The dust will transfer to anything it's been in contact with or even water flow over it. Your best bet is to melt it and flux well with sawdust, the oxides will return to elemental lead and be no more dangerous than any solid lead.

 

[Roger Allen]

Thanks for the advice. I had some stored in priority mail boxes in my barn that got wet from ground moisture...so when handling the lead from barn to pot I was using my bare hands thinking hand washing will be ok. Maybe I should buy some latex to prevent unthoughtful contamination. Luckily all my dross gets cooled off and properly disposed of. I don't toss it in the flower bed or something dumb

 

[Brad]

Metallic lead is not readily absorbed by the human GI tract. Lead oxide IS readily absorbed. This is why swallowing a pellet of shot isn't a big deal but eating lead paint chips is a big deal.

 

[Roger Allen]

Yeah. So really same hygiene applies to handling my lead, dross, clips, etc.

 

[Brad]

Exactly.
I think it was Ric in Yakima who said he takes the dross, mixes with with wet plaster, and lets it harden. He then throws that in the trash. No more fine particulates to worry about. Kind of a single use hazardous waste containment vessel. I like the concept.

 

[Rick]

Luckily all my dross gets cooled off and properly disposed of. I don't toss it in the flower bed or something dumb

Lead oxide isn't in the dross, if you flux it it will be returned to elemental lead. But if you were to put it in the flower beds lead will re-oxidize so no, don't do that.
.

 

[Roger Allen]

Good deal. Yeah my kids arnt handling lead. If they ever do help me size bullets I make them wear nitrile gloves.

I'll wash the door handles near my
Casting station just to be safe after I cast bullets. Thanks for the advice

 

[Rick]

How old are your kids?

 

[Roger Allen]

One is 6 turning 7 and the other is 2 turning 3. I don't let them around me when casting but I get them to help me size bullets (they like pulling the handle....about lost my index finger twice under the bullet sizer. I call them my handle pullers)

 

[Brad]

Keep them away from oxidized lead and practice good hygiene and should be fine. My kids grew up around lead and she seems reasonably literate and intelligent. Then again, she is an engineer?

I worry more about lead dust from my tumbler and lead based primers.

 

[Ian]

As was said, getting lead oxides on your skin isn't the worry because it won't absorb, it's the transfer to the mouth/nose and subsequent ingestion of the fine particles that's the issue. If your children wear gloves, then stick their gloved fingers in their mouth or scratch their nose, instant transfer, and THAT is what you have to watch. People touch their faces, particularly nose, lips, and eyelids a lot more than we think we do, or handle stuff that does touch them like coffee cup rims, cigarette butts, chewing gum, etc. and this is where we get threads on bullet casting forums about high blood lead levels. I think it was Glen who mentioned that an adult can carry a lead burden without symptoms that can cause severe mental retardation in a young child, so be careful that your kids don't get ANY lead residue in their faces.

If solid lead or lead alloy has been exposed to the atmosphere, it has oxidized, whether white or grey. So handling ANY bare, cast bullet transfers oxides to the skin. Just because it isn't white and crusty doesn't mean it isn't dangerous.

 

[Rick]

This from Glen Fryxell from this article.

Safe Handling Of Lead When Casting And Tumbling Brass
By: Glen E. Fryxell

As a Ph.D. chemist involved in the environmental chemistry of heavy metals and heavy metal toxicology, perhaps I can add a few helpful comments here. First off, you are right to be concerned about your children. Lead is considerably more dangerous to kids than it is to adults. A healthy 200 lb man can carry a lead burden (with no symptoms) that would cause severe mental retardation in a 5-year old. This is because one of the main effects that lead has is on the developmental biochemistry of the brain and spine. Once you've grown up, lead can't enter that particular pathway anymore. There are still other toxicity mechanisms to be concerned about, but the neurological development of children is easily the most serious.
.

 

[Roger Allen]

Greatest appreciation guys!!!

My son asked me if he could help me a while back making bullets.....I told him absolutely not. I told him it would make him sick and die. I told him that lead would get on his hands and he would touch his mouth and it's bad news.

At two years 9 months it's so funny when we size bullets the whole time he's telling me he can't put his hands in his mouth because it'll make him sick....and he repeats this over and over out loud.

My daughter is pretty intellectual herself and she knows gloves always and don't touch your face or pick your nose. She'll be like I got a bad itch on my face I'm going upstairs to wash my hands and take care of it.

I get harbor freight gloves for my kids as they make many trips here and there and I needed a cheap supply of protection for them.

 

[Rick]

I hope your sizing/loading area is in a different location than your casting area. Everything around your casting pot will have lead oxide dust on it unless everything is fully and carefully cleaned up. Just plain scary to have little ones anywhere around the chance of lead contamination.

 

[Roger Allen]

Yeah I only cast outside. I never really felt comfortable w the indoors casting thing