Movie set death

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Charles Graff

Moderator Emeritus
Reckon you didn't read this thread very closely. If you had you would have picked up on the fact that for 34 years this is what I did for a living.
So, in your 34 years, nobody ever fired a prop gun in the direction of the camera? Is that what you are saying?
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
So, in your 34 years, nobody ever fired a prop gun in the direction of the camera? Is that what you are saying?

What does that have to do with anything in this conversation. Sure happens all the time but it has nothing to do with any of this. Mostly such scenes are done as part of a second unit filming such inserts off location and not on the set during principal filming.
 

smokeywolf

Well-Known Member
DP was struck by bullet (thru & thru), exited her and struck Director (I can guess was standing or squating right behind her) in collar bone area. DP maybe standing immediately next to a camera, camera dolly or lowered camera crane?

From what I can glean from the many "news" stories about this tragedy. The non-union Prop Master was responsible for the gun(s). That all by itself is not, or should not, be done. An "Armorer" (although a member of the prop-makers local) is the one who is supposed to be in charge of all firearms.

30+ years in the motion picture industry. Don't think I've spent as much time 'on the set' as Rick, but, uncle was head of MGM Property Dept. for a few years in the '50s, then Set Decorator on many films; at least 2 of which were John Wayne westerns.
Old friend was armorer and or supplied firearms on many TV shows and motion pictures including "The A-Team", "Black Hawk Down", "Windtalkers", "RoboCop 3" and too many more to list.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
I agree, but why would he be pointing a gun at a director and a cinematographer?How did he hit two people? How many shots did he fire? How can blanks be that powerful, at what distance were they fired? That’s a lot of unanswered questions.

"..... but why would he be pointing a gun at a director and a cinematographer?

1. because the scene may have called for a viewer's point of view of the muzzle of the gun. That's an extremely common flim angle. How many times have you seen a close up of an actor in a film shot? The director, the camera operator, and other crew members would certainly be standing behind the camera. There's no other logical place for them to be.

How did he hit two people? -bullets or other projectiles can penetrate more than one person.

2. How many shots did he fire? - One would be enough ....Don't you agree?

3. How can blanks be that powerful (?) - MAYBE IT WASN'T A BLANK !

4, at what distance were they fired?-Close enough to be fatal !
 
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Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
From the VERY limited amount of information currently available ……..

It appears there was a mountain of negligence involved, however, it doesn’t sound, AT THIS POINT, that it will be criminal. There’s going to be a huge civil suit, probably an insurance settlement, maybe some litigation, maybe not. At this point this looks like an accident.

As much as I dislike Baldwin, at this time it doesn’t appear that he acted with malice or even knowledge that his actions would be dangerous.

Actors point guns at people all of the time. Sometimes they even fire those guns at people. The actors trust the people around them (prop masters and others) to keep the set safe.

People go to great lengths to ensure safety but sometimes there are failures. Stunt men are injured, sometimes fatally. Actors are injured, sometimes fatally. Crew members are injured, sometimes fatally. I don’t think anyone on that set wanted to kill the director of photography and she certainly didn’t want to die. Everything points to an accident – WITH THE INFORMATION CURRENTLY AVAILABLE.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
"no accident just happens , it is a result of 2 or more errors or failures of nominal/normal/SOP procedures" or so 22 yr of safety days , haz mat , etc in the AA&E business tells me .

We are all gun guys and at a minimum know about the remedial function of the blank gun or so fitted auto . I don't know how it works on set but I've watched lots of shoot scenes and frame by frame through dozens . Many have ejecta of some sort .
We know how autos work .
There are only a few that gas function , and fewer more that will function with case and gas inertia .
When you look at the scenes in slow motion and fxf it's obvious when it's live fire .
In the interest of benefit of the doubt , I wonder if rather than a squib and a blank driver if a portion of the blank firing device was ejected ..... Unforeseen equipment malfunction/failure .

There's no doubt that there were flaws in the safety chain . No excuse for a failure at the last hands .....trust but verify ?
 
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smokeywolf

Well-Known Member
Rumors are starting to trickle in that there was or were other mishandling and misfires of the "prop guns" in days prior to the killing of Mrs. Hutchins. Also, some of the crew had walked off the set several days earlier due to safety concerns and non-payment of weekly wages.

Try search: "Rust safety Baldwin"
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
To me no matter if it is a PROP.
Baldwin was holding a firearm. The firearm went off. It killed 1 and injured another. It was HIS Responsibility to handle the firearm Safely! Period
Not to defend Baldwin but I must disagree.

The typical rules that govern firearm safety do not apply on a Movie set, TV set or stage. The actor surrenders most of the normal personal rules of firearm safety and gives that responsibility over to the prop master, armorer, or other members of the film/production crew. The actors DO point guns at other people, often REAL guns. The actors DO manipulate the triggers and other controls of those guns when the gun is pointed at others. While those behaviors are foreign to users of firearms in the real world, the rules are in fact different in those theatrical arenas.

The responsibility on a set or stage is transferred to the crew and the actor must trust that the crew did their job. In general, actors are not “gun people” and they rely on the crew to keep everyone safe.

In addition to being an actor on that set, Baldwin was also a co-producer. That means he was partially paying the cost of producing that show and likely had a hand in selecting and hiring the director of photography. Meaning he wanted her for that job, respected her and may have considered her a friend.

There will be PLENTY of blame to go around and the civil actions will play out in courts for years to come. Baldwin is huge anti-gun liberal twit and I suspect he will use this tragedy to further that rhetoric but he will also have to live with what has occurred.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
The typical rules that govern firearm safety do not apply on a Movie set, TV set or stage.

NOTHING could be further from the truth. Nothing. All firearm safety rules apply in spades on a properly run set. The very first two in particular. 1 All guns are loaded. 2 Do not point it at anything you do not want to destroy.

NO safety rules are ignored, not on any set I've ever been on.
 

KeithB

Resident Half Fast Machinist
I will wait until I read an official report based on the results of a professional investigation before I pass judgment on anybody.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
NOTHING could be further from the truth. Nothing. All firearm safety rules apply in spades on a properly run set. The very first two in particular. 1 All guns are loaded. 2 Do not point it at anything you do not want to destroy.

NO safety rules are ignored, not on any set I've ever been on.
Rick you have previously conceded that real guns are used when the guns need to be fired on set and it’s obvious that guns are pointed at people during the production of movies and TV shows.

So that’s two clear deviations from the normal rules of firearm safety.

I have NO doubt there are strict safety rules concerning the handling of firearms on sets and clearly those rules may have been violated in the case at hand BUT, the rules are in fact different from the non-stage world where guns are not typically pointed at people.

I'm not claiming the rules were followed, I'm stating that the rules on a set are DIFFERENT.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Rick you have previously conceded that real guns are used when the guns need to be fired on set and it’s obvious that guns are pointed at people during the production of movies and TV shows.

So that’s two clear deviations from the normal rules of firearm safety.

Under very controlled conditions yes.

And live ammo on a set? I could count on one hand the times I've seen that. All rounds are counted and accounted for. Not even blanks are issued until the actual scene is set up and ready to roll. All rounds and empties are collected and accounted for immediately afterwards. Safety classes are held every day for those that will be handling firearms.

There is much wrong with this Baldwin story and no small part of it is what they aren't saying.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
I never claimed there should have been live ammo on a set. Nor do I believe the rules for that arena were followed. In fact, it appears that a LOT of rules were violated.

I am stating that the rules on a set are different than the rules in the real world.

In the real world, people don’t point guns at other people unless they intend to shoot that person, or they are just complete idiots. On TV and Movie sets, actors frequently point guns, sometimes real guns, at other people in the course of the performance. Sometimes actors even fire blanks on set.

There ARE rules on TV and Movie sets but those rules are different than the rules in the real world.
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
And you are of course stating all this from your vast experience on film sets?

Firearm rules are in effect on film sets. Firearm safety does not vanish simply because there is a camera nearby.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
There is much wrong with this Baldwin story and no small part of it is what they aren't saying.
I agree but most initial statements in these types of events are flawed.

People make assumptions and then make statements based on those assumptions. People use the wrong terminology. People state what they believe instead of what they actual know.
The event will be clearer as time goes by and facts overcome assumptions and speculation.
 

Petrol & Powder

Well-Known Member
Firearm rules are in effect on film sets. Firearm safety does not vanish simply because there is a camera nearby.
There are thousands upon thousands of examples of actors pointing guns at other actors in the course of creating TV shows and Movies. That is not normally acceptable behavior in the real world away from a TV or Movie set.
There are thousands upon thousnads of examples of actors firing blanks, from real guns, often pointed at other actors or cameras - that is not acceptable behavior off of a set.

Once again, I'm not claiming that rules do not exist on TV and Movie sets. I am simply stating those rules are different.
 

462

California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
“Let’s go Brandon”
Didn't know what that meant till earlier today.

Where have you been, Walter? I spent a night in Eugene on our way to Puyallup and back. Pretty country.
 
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