RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
I had one of those setups once. Threw it away and put in GI spring, guide and plunger and never looked back. Lasted as long as I owned the piece.
1911 Help Needed
- Thread starter 462
- Start date
Ian
Notorious member
I think it's mainly just another part to line the pockets of the aftermarket suppliers, with a few exceptions. The high-powered 1911s often need dual slide springs, one inside the other, and a full-length guide rod is essential to making that work. Another situation is with shortened slides where a much stiffer, higher coil-count spring is required and they tend to want to compress any which way but in-line. On a regular 1911, I can see no real advantage.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I've had both styles. And the response by 462 in post # 20 seem to be the accepted reasons to go with the full length guide rod.
"1. The added weight is said to reduce recoil.
2. The added length is said to eliminate the spring from becoming misshaped and binding, and, thereby, reducing slide resistance."
After playing with both styles, I've not impressed with the full length guide rod. I don't think it's needed. The major pistol manufacturers seem to agree with me.
In practice, the full length guide rod adds complexity to field striping. The little bit of extra weight is hardly enough to matter for recoil reduction. That leaves prevention of the spring binding as the only potential plus.
I agree that when the slides/barrels get really short, a dual, nested recoil spring may require a guide rod. However, in a full size slide or Commander length slide - the original setup is just fine.
The standard, closed end, recoil spring plug and short guide rod at the rear, provide more than enough containment for the recoil spring under compression. And the original setup is completely reliable.
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Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Coil springs, left to their own devices will not compress in a straight line. They will try to occupy all the space around them by bending and deforming in what could be called a spiral pattern. When they bend to the side, it changes the spring rate by reducing it. And it will continue to bend until is hits some obstacle. The contact with the obstacle produces friction. So, another variable added. Yes, short coil springs tend to compress in a straight line. But this is not a short coil spring. It requires less force to bend the spring to the side than to compress the coils. So, a spring of a given spring rate will normally require less force to fully compress if it is bent to the side a bit rather than be stacked up perfectly on its coils. So, depending on how the spring reacts during each compression, the compressing force could vary a small amount each time. Since the spring force in a 1911 is preventing the slide from beating itself to death on the frame, this can be important. Those who shoot 1911's in various competition know that you normally have to change the spring for load you are using. Yeah, you could put a weak spring in there that works with your lightest loads and it would function for all the hotter loads as well. But it would beat up the gun and you as well. Think of holding a railroad spike in your hand and having someone hit it with a hammer.
Now the other aspect of this changing force is the velocity at which the slide comes back, and probably more importantly the rate of acceleration it sees. The resident time of the bullet in the barrel will not change. But if the slide motion changes, which changes the recoil, and that alters the point at which the bullet exits the barrel and hence affects accuracy. So, what the guide rod is doing is keeping the spring straight, making it compress the same way every time. In doing so, it is trying to maximize the consistency of the slide recoil for every shot. If the slide recoils the same very time, then theoretically, the bullet should exit the muzzle at the same point in the recoil arc for every shot. Yes if the shooter changes his hold this varies the recoil arc as well. But we are talking serious shooters with serious skills trying to reduce any of the pistol-based variables.
Yup, might be splitting hairs. But cutting the line on a target is splitting hairs too, so for serious shooters, it's important.
And of course, there is the cool factor and we all know that the cool factor alone makes you shoot better. Afterall, if you are at a national match with all the pros and they have full length guide rods and you don't... Well, you're just gonna look like a weenie, aren't you?
Ian
Notorious member
In a standard 1911 shooting normal ammunition, that spring is actually serving only as a slide-return spring. The only function is to trap energy and then release it to chamber a fresh cartridge. The recoil of the slide is controlled by the mainspring via the firing pin stop radius acting on the hammer. If your slide is beating up your frame, you need to replace your firing pin stop with one that has a smaller radius.
Now, if you're setting up your pistol for heavy loads or it's a 10mm, .45 Super, .45 Winchester Magnum, and some others, the slide return spring needs to be beefed up significantly to share the actual recoil load although it's still at a disadvantage because the force is highest at the beginning of the slide stroke during the barrel unlock sequence and that's when the slide spring is most extended and at its weakest. Beyond that, over-rate slide springs do soak up some of the slide energy but not still not nearly as much as the mainspring does.
Now, if you're setting up your pistol for heavy loads or it's a 10mm, .45 Super, .45 Winchester Magnum, and some others, the slide return spring needs to be beefed up significantly to share the actual recoil load although it's still at a disadvantage because the force is highest at the beginning of the slide stroke during the barrel unlock sequence and that's when the slide spring is most extended and at its weakest. Beyond that, over-rate slide springs do soak up some of the slide energy but not still not nearly as much as the mainspring does.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
I would dare say the "Cool Factor" plays a bigger role in selling full length guide rods than the potential of the spring deflecting 1 or 1.25 degrees during recoil.........................
And of course, there is the cool factor and we all know that the cool factor alone makes you shoot better. Afterall, if you are at a national match with all the pros and they have full length guide rods and you don't... Well, you're just gonna look like a weenie, aren't you?
358156 hp
At large, whereabouts unknown.
Full-length recoil spring guides are probably redundant for most every day purposes. I've heard some claim that they can bind up a gun, I've heard others claim that they're an extra margin of reliability. I put more stock in the latter, but don't totally accept it. Once upon a time, I bought a new Colt 1911 that had cycling issues that I tracked down to the recoil spring. I added a full length guide rod and the problem went away. We decided that the recoil spring was kinking while it cycled, even though I'm still being told that it is not possible for the spring to kink in the spring tunnel.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
Can the recoil spring deflect inside the pistol? Absolutely, and Snakeoil is correct that an unsupported coil spring will tend to bend when compressed. However, the question is, “how much can it bend inside a 1911”? (I will not use the word “kink” because there’s not enough room for that to happen)
The recoil spring of a 1911 is partially guided at the rear by the spring guide and is partially contained in the hollow plug at the front. Then you have the nose of the slide, the dust cover and the barrel, practically encasing the rest. I’m sure the recoil spring deflects some but I just don’t think it’s enough to matter. John Browning seemed to agree.
I think what we see in the 1911 is an early developmental step in semi-auto pistol design. When we look at other pistols, we can see there was some development and alternatives. The FN Model 1900 has the recoil spring above the barrel. The later Browning Hi-Power has a solid front slide below the barrel. A lot of later pistol designs have a recoil rod that protrudes through the front of the slide below the muzzle. A lot of simple blowback designs place the recoil spring around the barrel and use the barrel as a spring guide. There are different ways to address the recoil spring.
A full length guide rod on a 1911 requires an opening in the front of the slide for the guide rod to pass through. This is generally accomplished with a recoil spring plug that has a hole for the rod to pass through. The plug is retained by the barrel brushing. It works but adds complexity.
Most later designs, like the CZ-75 or Beretta 92, have no removable barrel bushing and simply put a couple of holes in the nose of the slide for the barrel and recoil rod to pass through.
John Browning elected to use a removable barrel bushing in many of his early designs. That feature seems to have fallen out of favor later.
There are different ways to do things.
The recoil spring of a 1911 is partially guided at the rear by the spring guide and is partially contained in the hollow plug at the front. Then you have the nose of the slide, the dust cover and the barrel, practically encasing the rest. I’m sure the recoil spring deflects some but I just don’t think it’s enough to matter. John Browning seemed to agree.
I think what we see in the 1911 is an early developmental step in semi-auto pistol design. When we look at other pistols, we can see there was some development and alternatives. The FN Model 1900 has the recoil spring above the barrel. The later Browning Hi-Power has a solid front slide below the barrel. A lot of later pistol designs have a recoil rod that protrudes through the front of the slide below the muzzle. A lot of simple blowback designs place the recoil spring around the barrel and use the barrel as a spring guide. There are different ways to address the recoil spring.
A full length guide rod on a 1911 requires an opening in the front of the slide for the guide rod to pass through. This is generally accomplished with a recoil spring plug that has a hole for the rod to pass through. The plug is retained by the barrel brushing. It works but adds complexity.
Most later designs, like the CZ-75 or Beretta 92, have no removable barrel bushing and simply put a couple of holes in the nose of the slide for the barrel and recoil rod to pass through.
John Browning elected to use a removable barrel bushing in many of his early designs. That feature seems to have fallen out of favor later.
There are different ways to do things.
Charles Graff
Moderator Emeritus
Like many others, I fell for the full length guide rod malarkey back in the day. It was a so called improvement that was based on a theory and served only to sell new parts when the original worked just fine. I am 60 years deep into the 1911 pistol and only fell for the full length guide rod once. When I got tired of messing with it, it went into the trash. I do not mourn it's passing. The pistol is 110+ years old for Pete's sake. We know how, why it works. The battle fields of the world are not littered with kinked recoil springs from a 1911 pistol.
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The original designed recoil spring guide and the plug leave around 3/4 of an inch of the spring unsupported when the 5-inch 1911 pistol is assembled. The rest is either already on the guide or in the plug. The frames dust cover doesn't let the rest of the spring go anywhere if it was ever likely to. When I first took apart my 5-inch Dan Wesson 1911, I noticed that DW had used the shorter Commander style plug. I thought that's odd but apparently, they only use the short Commander plug, one less part to inventory.
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
After reading all this. Just thinking. But maybe I am wrong.
Would not the friction of the spring against the guide rod be worse then, or the same as, the friction. Or an occasional touch here and there, without it?
But then if the extended guide rod is small enough it don't touch the spring how can it prevent the spring from touching the channel?
Then again I could see maybe a benefit of being able to field strip easier if it was all a captured unit. Especially with a short stroke and double spring. Like some of the defensive carry ones.
Would not the friction of the spring against the guide rod be worse then, or the same as, the friction. Or an occasional touch here and there, without it?
But then if the extended guide rod is small enough it don't touch the spring how can it prevent the spring from touching the channel?
Then again I could see maybe a benefit of being able to field strip easier if it was all a captured unit. Especially with a short stroke and double spring. Like some of the defensive carry ones.
Ian
Notorious member
I don't think you're wrong at all.
Unless necessitated by super-compact or extremely powerful chamberings (both things obviously way outside the original design parameters of a 5" .45 ACP), I can't see much use for the full length guide rod.
fiver
Well-Known Member
i've never looked inside any of my 1911's.
i put ammo in them, the bullets come out the muzzle, and they keep on doing it with a couple of drops of oil on the slidy parts.
i kind of remember my tokarov type 99 has the same back and forth system and the same take down.
the thing i remember about it is it don't have a rod, the spring is held between the toggle and the front of the slide by air.
works all the time every time though, and has done so with all kinds and types of ammo.
i put ammo in them, the bullets come out the muzzle, and they keep on doing it with a couple of drops of oil on the slidy parts.
i kind of remember my tokarov type 99 has the same back and forth system and the same take down.
the thing i remember about it is it don't have a rod, the spring is held between the toggle and the front of the slide by air.
works all the time every time though, and has done so with all kinds and types of ammo.
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
Hey fellas kinda on the subject.
I prefer to buy local. And I know a couple other brands were recommended to me.
But the local shop has Wilson Combat. 1911 45acp 8 round stainless, standard base mags for $23 each. On sale.
Do they work good with other brand guns?. If so should I grab one at that price?
I prefer to buy local. And I know a couple other brands were recommended to me.
But the local shop has Wilson Combat. 1911 45acp 8 round stainless, standard base mags for $23 each. On sale.
Do they work good with other brand guns?. If so should I grab one at that price?
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Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
Wilson mags have worked in every 1911 platform I've run them in.
Mitty38
Well-Known Member
Thanks
462
California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
I don't earn a living shooting the gun, so don't need to be concerned about the full length guide rod's real or supposed advantages and benefits. I don't carry the gun, so don't need to be concerned about having to use a wrench to reassemble it. But, this episode and some of the above posts got me thinking about eliminating Randall's idea of how the gun ought to be and changing it to Mr. Browning's original configuration.
Last night I searched Brownells, Thunder Mountain, and Midway for a G. I. plug and guide rod. Already had some stuff in Midway's cart so added the plug and rod and will wait for Larry's next $49 free delivery offer.
Last night I searched Brownells, Thunder Mountain, and Midway for a G. I. plug and guide rod. Already had some stuff in Midway's cart so added the plug and rod and will wait for Larry's next $49 free delivery offer.