1911 problem

Ian

Notorious member
JMB was a pretty smart guy. The more I fool with the 1911 the more I realize how
truly amazing it is as a design.

There are many thick books dedicated only to the subject of gunsmithing the 1911. It takes hundreds of technically descriptive pages to explain the total workings of one. It is the most complex, yet elegantly simple and efficient devices I've ever seen.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
I'm wondering if the barrel isn't linking into lock up quite right, or unlocking a touch too early.
it's definitely scraping the primer somewhere.
I'd try to find what it's scraping on.
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
you know nobel sport was making primers for Winchester for a little while, shot shell primers for sure anyway.
they still use their [Winchesters] recipe under their own banner now.
 

Eutectic

Active Member
The inertia firing pin in 1911's can leave some funny looking primers on firing if the primer cup isn't 'balanced' as to thickness hardness material, etc. Pin weight, spring tension, even mainspring are part of the balance. I would eliminate the primer brand first if it were me.

Before I even owned a 1911 .45 I shot my Dad's. The club had got some DCM .45 military ammo for our qualifications and the batch brought a lot of raised eyebrows! (before Botox) It was steel cased! It was headstamped "E C 43". It shot OK. Some tried to reload the steel case and couldn't. The primers were small...... Now I don't mean small pistol.... I mean .005" or so smaller than large pistol! Not only that..... they appeared to be copper or copper plated steel??. At any rate, the 1911's left them looking different on fired cases...... Most had the dent lessened; some almost looked unfired with the dent pushed back flush! Then some crated to some extent like Brad's. Not all of the 1911's reacted.... but most did! I think pressures were fine just the inertia pin went goofy over those particular primers. For this reason I'd be careful with the 1911 and the fired primer appearance unless other American brands also displayed the problem.

Pete
 

KeithB

Resident Half Fast Machinist
Those were EVANSVILLE Cartridge Company, we made 95% of the .45 cartridges used in WWII. I have some snake loads from them. Paper folded over #9(?) shot to look like a regular ball round. Supposedly issued to troops in Pacific, load by hand in chamber for first shot, load clip of ball as usual. Paper would shred and empty case would eject. No loading from magazine!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ian

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
I shot a lot of steel cased .45 ACP in a friend's Colt 1917 Army when I was a teen. It was $1 per 100,
so we loved shooting that old girl...although it was corrosive. Yes, I remember the copper colored
primers in the zinc washed cases. The undamaged bullets, dug from his sand berm were set on their
bases on a board and we use them as targets at about 20-25 yds sitting with .22 rifles. The .22 bullet would
split the jacket, expand and weld to the lead core, the whole mess stayed intact. Somewhere I have a couple
saved.
I have some Evansville brass .45 ACP WW2 in original box, too. Decided not to shoot it, just keep for it's
sentimental value. Must have been a big arsenal.

I can assure you that Brad's primer appearance is not normal. The only 1911 brass that I have seen like
that in more than 30 years of picking up 45 ACP brass at matches, was .38 Super, a good bit of it not mine, I have
never seen even one like it in .45 ACP. A good number of them in .38 Super looked like that when people were
first pushing for Major Caliber and hadn't yet figured out how to safely do it.
Something is off kilter, seeming to be high pressure, but that assumes normal primer cup hardness
and thickness, which may or may not be true.

Back to changing brand of primers as the leading candidate as "next reasonable step".

Bill
 
Last edited:

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Glad to know. That was what I thought, but good to have another tidbit for the
"analysis files" when weird stuff happens. Always trying to learn.

Bill
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
I have decided that 4.8 gr of Red Dot is all the hotter I want to go. I actually have loaded 4.2 gr with some good results.
You will be happy to know my last trip out was with 4.8 gr of Titegroup and the 200 swc.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
How did it work for you? That one has satisfied me for decades. H&G 68 or commercial
clone and 4.8 TG.

I THINK I get slightly more accurate results with 4.2 TG and 452460, but the difference
is small enough to be not totally convinced. Seems true with one or two guns, but
not by a lot. Rem brass has definitely given me better results. No clue why, but
it is repeatable for me, compared to Win, Fed, and Starline.

Alliant online reloading guide says 4.5gr Red Dot is max for 200 Speer LSWC.
Says 831 fps from a 5" bbl.

Hodgdon online data says 5.4gr TG is max with 200 LSWC, says 877 fps from 4.8 gr
and 957 fps from 5.4gr. I haven't chronoed it in a long time, but 875-900 is what
I remember getting, so that fits with Hodgdon pretty well.
Back when Major Caliber was 180,000, I loaded 5.0 gr for ~925 fps average. After USPSA
dropped it to 170,000, I went to 4.8 gr which was probably actually 175-180K, so safe
for 170K limit. Now it is 165K, to satisfy the .40 S&W folks. 180 gr at 917fps makes it,
or 165 gr at 1,000 fps. I stayed at 4.8 TG/200 LSWC (H&G 68 commercial cast about
80% of the time).

Bill
 
Last edited:

Charles Graff

Moderator Emeritus
Two thoughts:

1. How long has it been since you removed the firing pin and spring and gave the channel a good cleaning?
2. Burrs on the case rim are not uncommon depending on several factors.
 

Ian

Notorious member
4.7 grains of Titegroup under a Lyman 452374HP (203 grains) has been my go-to carry load for the Commander for so long that all my loaded ammo has Lyman Alox for lube.
 

waco

Springfield, Oregon
The last small batch of 45ACP I loaded was a 68 clone with Universal. I think I’m going to give Redot a try.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Universal really shines with the 230s. One thing about the old .45 ACP, you'll have a hard time finding a medium to fast pistol/shotgun powder that it doesn't like.
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Two thoughts:

1. How long has it been since you removed the firing pin and spring and gave the channel a good cleaning?
2. Burrs on the case rim are not uncommon depending on several factors.
Spring was replaced last year. I cleaned the pin channel well at that time. Pin was out for some other work a couple weeks ago and it was amazingly clean. A pipe cleaner then the channel, wipe down the pin, a little oil, and back in she goes.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
MP's 200HP version of the 452374 does great things in my wet newsprint testing with a stout load
of Unique. Penetration by the factory tested ammo in ballistic gelatin has shown consistently
to be right at twice what I get with the same factory ammo in my wet newsprint. So this would
be about 11" penetration in gelatin. I don't normally carry this, but wouldn't feel bad if it
were in the gun. Alliant data says that 7,3 Unique is max with a 200 Gold Dot, and is OK with
a 230 copper plated bullet, so I am fine with this load, although I wouldn't go hotter. The
Alliant data says the 200 GDot reaches 980, so with the lower friction, I imagine that this
is maybe 50-75 above that from a 5" gun, and about 950-1000 in a Commander.

9661
 
Last edited:

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
Old Slabsides is an incredibly tough sidearm system. Back in the 1980s when Cal-DOJ actually did academic testing, research, and published results for the firearms science community, I spent a few days with the criminalists testing 1911A1 pistols court-ordered for destruction. Object of the game was to blow them up. Double charges of Bullseye behind 230 grain j-words ran vigorously, but did not break and kept running for 200+ rounds. The pistols cycled VERY vigorously, the brass got launched, the sidewalls pooched out a bit where the case was unsupported, and the primers back-cratered. But the pistols held. 2.5X book max of BE compressed heavily caused the chambers to swell and bound the slide about 3/8" back--the the chambers and barrels held. Velocities were in 1200-1250 ballpark with the 2X charges, IIRC. Fun times.
 

Cherokee

Medina, Ohio
CZ - interesting results. Being a part of that testing would have been exciting. I would imagine the manufacturer/materials used would make a big difference. I've had two barrels split from normal loads and the lugs shear off on another on guns with less than 10k rounds. The split barrels were AMT OEM and I forget the other one's supplier. I replaced the barrels and the guns keep going.