304g NOE in a new 22-4 S&W revolver.

Glaciers

Glaciers

Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
First off this is a new model S&W model 1950 4" 45 ACP 6 gun. The cylinder is .452 the groove is also .452.
I've wanted to go with heavy bullets in this pistol from the start. Some on this forum have used 290 grain bullets which perked my interest. When I ran across this NOE mold at 304, maybe a little heavy but the full diameter was quite long. The idea was for the bullet to be started in the forward part of the cylinder and not jump into a sharp edge. Anyway it fits nicely.

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The overall cartridge length I'm loading is 1.383, 50/50 WW & pure, sized to .452, with BLL

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Started with 3.1 grains of BE for 489 fps, 3.6g, 4.2g, at 4.8g hit average of 684 fps with a plus or minus of 10 fps. I was shooting in the rain so conditions sucked, but 4.8 grains of BE group well at 10 yards, but like a loads were about 1" high as expected.

This was going well and the 4.8 grain load at 684 about fit what I was looking for. But, I thought I'd look further. I tried 5.1 grains BE just to see how well it would preform. 714 average with a small spread of about + or - 10 fps. Recoil was beginning to be noticeable but not bad. All powder loads were thrown with a Little Dandy measure, checked on a beam scale, and loads were what the rotors produced. I would consider the 5.1g load about tops.

Next step is to try a mix of 30 to 1 lead - tin as the 50/50 mix is about 9bhn which might be a little tough. The bore on this newish pistol has some machine marks so I'm thinking of lapping/polishing a bit. Think I'm going to try PC as well
 
CZ93X62

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
I have yet to go any heavier than 264 grains in my Model 625. Those bullets (courtesy of a member here) shot VERY well, in the 2" group range at 25 yards and hit about 2.5" high at that distance. The sights are set for 225-230 grain bullets.

I know that folks get lyrical about their 44 Special wheelguns, and I totally "get" that. With almost 2 years of shooting now, I am quite taken with this revolver. It is accurate as all get out, and is a pleasure to fire. Its dimensioning is correct, a thing not true of my late-1970s Model 25-2, it was a MESS.
 
harm

harm

Member
A while back, I talked over a heavy bullet with Full.Lead.Taco for 45 ACP specifically but don't think the mold was ever cut. I don't recall having seen that 304-grain design before! I like it.
 
Glaciers

Glaciers

Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Yeah Al had a 292 I’m thinking, but not sure. But I was looking for that 292 a couple weeks ago when I ran across this 304 and he had a 5 cavity for $92, so I grab it and it cast beautifully right out of the box. Well after cleaning and heat cycling

once the weather improves here in about a week I’ll give it a try at 25 yards and see where it shoots compared to the sights
 
harm

harm

Member
Likely not, if it's full-diameter up to that obvious ogive, but I only planned on messing around with the heavy bullet in a HiPoint pistol and then later in a bolt action. I need to build that bolt-action first.

I imagine this bullet fills the cylinder nicely in the revolver. Looking forward to seeing your results!
 
StrawHat

StrawHat

Well-Known Member
Looking forward to more information. Not sure I need 300+ grains of lead in an ACP but why not?

Kevin
 
Glaciers

Glaciers

Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Well I’ve been holding off on the Smith 22-4 because I have added the 625 in the mix and thanks to Bruno I now have auto rim brass so I don’t have to fiddle with moon clips. I went to start with the new brass then realized that I didn’t have a shell holder for the thicker rim. Was able to add the RCBS #8 to an order I had in progress with Midsouth which arrived yesterday.
So going to move ahead hopefully for some testing this weekend.
 
Glaciers

Glaciers

Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
No weather and winter took command of my life and didn’t allow much time for testing. But did get a reasonable batch cast of both the NOE 304 and the 255 LEE with some of each PC’ed and some with BLL. Finally sizing to be done this spring. Of course a second coating of Ben’s after sizing.
My excuse is that arctic winter demands your full attention, respect and time, especially as this winter. But we are currently in southern Arizona and will be until April. With all the snow at the homestead it will be May before I will be able to get the range open anyway.
Second “but”. I’m thinking that spring and early summer will be 45 caliber time. Between the NOE 304 and LEE 255 for the pistols and the 500 Lee, Arsenal 370 semi pointed for the 458 x 2 American, then add my new Arsenal 235, Lyman 292, 405 and 500 flat points. Lots of fun work.
I’ve decided that my concentration will be 45 calibers. With the 30 cal 315 thrown in for my levers just for a change up.
 
L Ross

L Ross

Well-Known Member
Ben said:
I'd like to know what the pressure of the 5.1 grains BE load was ?

Ben
Click to expand...
Maybe we don't. I was thinking 5.1 was pretty common for 230 grain and those bullet don't occupy much of the case capacity.
 
CZ93X62

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
L Ross said:
Maybe we don't. I was thinking 5.1 was pretty common for 230 grain and those bullet don't occupy much of the case capacity.
Click to expand...
This gets my vote. 5.0 x Bullseye under a GI 230 FMJ notches 17.5K-18.0K PSI. Add on 74 more grains of lead and fill up more case space with bullet base and things might get a bit warmish.

For a variety of reasons, I have been unable to cast any Lyman #452423 bullets yet. Those are supposed to be Mr. Keith's pet bullet for the 45 ACP revolvers. My ammo & bullet factory has been out of commission for some months, and with health improving I was out there for a couple hours straightening things up each of the last few days. I have 5 moulds (new or new-to-me) sitting unwarmed and a new revolver that has remained unfired since its acquisition in late 2020. Another 9mm will be joining the herd shortly, as well (Glock 43). These situations are INTOLERABLE. This will not do, at all.
 
L Ross

L Ross

Well-Known Member
I thought I was being a bit edgy loading 452424's in acp brass to be fired in a FA Model 97 with 6.0 grains of Unique.
 
Glaciers

Glaciers

Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Ok I’m currently sitting 3712 miles away from my reloading information so I’m trying to rebuild this by remote control. First off is seating depth. This 304 is seated at 1.383 which is longer the most, maybe any slide gun can handle. So this is revolver only, and new Smith “N” frames or other modern strong revolvers. As I have listed I’m using a 625 and a 22-4.
My goal is to push this bullet at or close to 800 fps. But 650 to 700 will probably be the standard use for me. The 2nd but, I want to know that if the need/desire is there for a warmer load that it’s possible in guns I really like and do not want to damage. 3rd but, these are strong guns. I don’t know how the strength compares to bottom feeders, I suspect there’s a fair difference.
Having said that I also suspect the main stay for these guns will be the LEE 255 which I think is a very good looking bullet.
First off the COL seating depth of 1.383 compared to the longest 230 grain COL I’ve run across is 1.252 for a difference of .131 additional length allowing more room for the extra 74 grains. I’m looking for the info I had/have on BE loadings, but that may have to wait till I get back up north. I will follow through on reporting how I got there.
While having tried 5.1g of BE in my guns I might go one step higher but doubt that I will go further with BE. A slower powder is on my agenda to try such as Power Pistol, unique, and 2400 which I have available on the shelf.
Below I have a link to Brian Pearce’s article in a 2017 Handloader. For information on the BE loads I believe (and I’m checking) that some information came from articles written by John Taffin, Ed Harris and Mr RicinYakima. Now once again if memory serves heavier bullets in the range of 250 to over 290, Bullseye, and more standard COL’s in the 1.250 range were referred to. But, remember as memory serves here, I’m looking to confirm that, so no slander is intended to these gentleman.
In Brian’s load listings the 280 grain lists PP from 5.3 at 755 to 6.3 at 863 fps. Also 10g of 2400 at 766 to 11g at 855 fps, then unique from 5.0 at 764 to 6.0 at 891. All of these loads are at a COL of 1.275. My point is that with 24 grains more lead but with.108 more COL which should translate + or - into more in the powder room.
I admit that there’s verifiables in bullet shape, case volume, and maybe and more importantly what it takes to get said large chunk moving.
Have said all of this I feel that 5.1 BE is safe in my guns, but I think that a slower powder is warranted to achieve the 800fps range I would like. These guns I feel are the strongest double action pistols out there and can take even more without a hiccup. But I’m going slow and have magnums for the hot stuff, but while my Smith 29 with 320’s running at 1000 to 1100fps can take it, I’m thinking a 304 800fps should be ok in the 2 subject Smith’s.
Please chime in, I value opinions of this group.

 
JonB

JonB

Halcyon member
The largest I tried was the Lee 255.
After shooting a just a few in a 1917 I had at the time, I decided I'd stick with loading the 255 in the 45 colt.
I think I still have some of those 255 acp's loaded on the shelf?
 
Winelover

Winelover

North Central Arkansas
I don't care for the heavy for caliber bullets in anything. Especially, so in short semi auto brass...........pressures go up fast when seating deeper. In my nines, I draw the line at 135 grain bullets. Don't own a 45 ACP but do have a BH in 45 Colt..............270 grains is the heaviest I load........255 is the lightest.

All one gains from heavy for caliber bullets is lower velocities, more recoil and higher POI. Speed is what kills.
 
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