32 ACP 311252, 75 gr. plain base

[CZ93X62]

Just like with 9mm Luger, 32 ACP in the USA is down-loaded significantly from the European ammunition in those calibers. In my present Walther PP, most USA-made 71 grain FMJ loads barely manage 800 FPS; European-made loads run at or just under 900 FPS. That is about a 12% performance deficit. This is why America can't have nice things--we allow lawyers to run roughshod with paralyzing vicarious liability statutes.

 

[Rick H]

There was a different mindset among European police agencies as well. In the late 70's we had a West German federal police Lt (?) over visiting with our department. He was horrified that we trained firing at center mass. They were not concerned with stopping power and actually taught firing at extremities to disable and or "mark" offenders so they would be easy to pick up later when they sought treatment at hospitals and such. He showed us their targets, and sure enough, they got rewarded with higher scores for hits in the shoulder/arm/leg areas and less for solid torso or head shots.
Yes they were being taught to shoot to wound. The lessons of Munich just took a while to set in. One of the reasons they sent him stateside was to see how we handled things. At the time we were using .357 magnums and 12 ga. shotguns loaded with either #4 or OO buckshot. I think he viewed police weapons as more of a badge of authority than necessary tools of the trade.
One other point I should make. It was rare for West German police to face armed resistance. Firearm ownership was not as widespread as it is in the US. I suspect the population was more compliant as well.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

The complexities of post war, civilian policing in western Europe are very deep. The mindset was different when compared to the U.S. and much has been written about that. The situation was extremely complicated.
West Germany was one of the more complex areas. They were occupied until 1955. The new government was set up to safe guard the freedom of the people. There was/is a strong cultural respect for authority (which can be good or bad, depending on who's in charge) and the police rarely had to use deadly force.
As terrorism increased in western Europe, along with just plain old criminal activity; the civilian police were caught way behind the curve. Their system of criminal justice was very fearful of an oppressive police force. It took a while for everyone to adjust.
I don't think the Europeans saw the 32 ACP (7.65 Browning) as an inadequate cartridge. They just saw it as a cartridge. They dealt with a largely unarmed population that was obedient to a fault. That mindset evolved with the passage of time and they are now dealing with a much more diverse and violent population than they were 50 years ago.

 

[RicinYakima]

Posts above also falls inline with what I had read years ago; the 7.65 was more accurate than the 9 Kurtz. That may have only been because most small autos are designed around the 7.65 and the later 9 overstresses the design.

 

[CZ93X62]

Good info above, with which I agree in toto. Over the years, I've owned about a dozen each of 32 ACP and 380 ACP. The 32 ACP is A LOT more accurate than the 380, that's not even a question. The only 380s I have fired that could stay close to the 32 ACP were the SIG P-230s and P-232s, which we still authorize and are very popular for the admin types and a few detectives. They are made in 32 ACP as well, and are popular in Asian countries.

The late LTC Jeff Cooper wrote something late in his career that stuck in my head since I read it--that "If you are going to limit yourself to a pocket blowback pistol, why not just carry a 22 LR?" That bit caused me to scratch my head a bit, and not long after that the Soviet Empire collapsed and the Russian military and police started ditching their Makarovs in 9 x 18 Mak for the PSM in 5.45 x 18 caliber.

What the HEY?? A centerfire 22 caliber spitzer-form pistol bullet @ 1025 FPS? It turns out that Russia is not a balmy place for a lot of the year, and people wear a lot of layered clothing. The blunt-form squatty/fat 9mm Makarov bullets often failed to penetrate this layered clothing, and the spitzer-form 5.45mm bullet with a hardened core pin did better work piercing through layers of fabric to reach the human encased within same.

 

[RicinYakima]

"What the HEY?? A centerfire 22 caliber spitzer-form pistol bullet @ 1025 FPS? It turns out that Russia is not a balmy place for a lot of the year, and people wear a lot of layered clothing. The blunt-form squatty/fat 9mm Makarov bullets often failed to penetrate this layered clothing, and the spitzer-form 5.45mm bullet with a hardened core pin did better work piercing through layers of fabric to reach the human encased within same."

Without penetration, you have nothing.

 

[Petrol & Powder]

Good info above, with which I agree in toto. Over the years, I've owned about a dozen each of 32 ACP and 380 ACP. The 32 ACP is A LOT more accurate than the 380, that's not even a question. The only 380s I have fired that could stay close to the 32 ACP were the SIG P-230s and P-232s, which we still authorize and are very popular for the admin types and a few detectives. They are made in 32 ACP as well, and are popular in Asian countries. .............

/\ I wish to build on this a bit.

I totally agree that it is often easier to find accurate pistols chambered in 32 ACP than similar pistols chambered in 380 Auto.
I also agree the SIG P230 may be an exception. (I'll may start another thread on that particular issue because it's worth exploring)

I don't think the issue is fairly framed as "32 ACP Verses 380 Auto", but rather should be framed as "32 ACP AND 380 Auto".
Despite the apparent similarities between the 32 ACP & 380 Auto (small cartridges designed for blow-back semi-auto pistols) those two cartridges are very different in how they achieve their respective performance.
The 380 is about the biggest slug that we can launch from a simple blowback pistol before we have to step up to a locked breach. The 9x18 Mak may be the outlier there. There are larger cartridges in some blowback designs but they require very heavy slides, stiff springs, chambers with rings cut in them and other assorted weirdness. For the most part; 380 Auto is the ceiling for a blowback operating system, in a small pistol. That cartridge relies on its relatively high mass (by small pistol standards) to achieve what it does. In that regard, it is head and shoulders above cartridges such as the 25 Auto.

The 32 ACP accomplishes its goal by taking advantage of small frontal area and decent velocity. This gives it better than expected penetration for its class.

I think one of the reasons the 32 ACP (7.65 Browning Short) refuses to die, is that it DOES punch above its weight. The fine accuracy seen from a lot of 32 ACP pistols doesn't hurt either.

And finally, in the current climate of the day, its economical use of lead and powder cannot be overlooked.

 

[Outpost75]

Some typical velocities for Euro Vs. US made .32 ACP:

Ammunition ________________Beretta Tomcat 2.4”____Beretta M1935 3.4”
WW2 Geco Steel Cased FMJ____907 fps, 14 Sd_________977 fps, 11 Sd
WW2 WRA 73-grain FMJ_______923 fps, 28 Sd_________1001 fps, 15 Sd
Fiocchi 73-grain FMJ____________848 fps, 32 Sd_________917 fps, 11 Sd
Norma 77-gr. FMJ______________894 fps, 23 Sd_________977 fps, 16 Sd
RWS 73-grain FMJ______________896 fps, 29 Sd_________981 fps, 16 Sd
Sellier & Bellot 73-gr. FMJ______892 fps, 21 Sd________1003 fps, 20 Sd

Aguila 71-gr. FMJ_______________837 fps, 35 Sd_________909 fps, 20 Sd
Buffalo Bore 75-grain LFN______883 fps, 6 Sd__________997 fps, 7 Sd
Federal 71-gr. FMJ______________804 fps, 21 Sd_________862 fps, 19 Sd
Magtech 71-gr. FMJ____________796 fps, 19 Sd_________866 fps, 13 Sd
R-P 71-gr. FMJ__________________822 fps, 49 Sd__________900 fps, 27 Sd
W-W 71-gr. FMJ________________790 fps, 35 Sd__________847 fps, 33 Sd

Euro ammo in the .380 ACP may be hotter also unless you get an optimized "short-barrel" load

.380 ACP Factory Loads In M1934 Beretta vs. Ruger LCP

Ammunition Type___________3.4” Beretta M1934______2.75” Ruger LCP
Fiocchi 95-grain FMJRN_______984 fps, 25 Sd, 86ES_____853 fps, 34 Sd, 116 ES
Winchester 95-grain FMJFN____891 fps, 17 Sd, 44ES_____804 fps, 18 Sd, 63 ES
Remington 102-grain GSHP____893 fps, 27 Sd, 60ES_____845 fps, 44 Sd, 151 ES

 

[CZ93X62]

No surprises in Outpost75's load charts.

The 9mm Makarov is a BEAST, when loaded to its potential. I have some Tula 95 grain JHP ammo in the cabinet, and it delivers 1075-1100 FPS from my East German example. While not quite a Glock 29, it remains a bit of a handful in recoil. Locked breeches stretch that impulse out a bit, the monster recoil spring in the Mak DOES NOT.

My thoughts are that a lot of the current platforms we see the 380 ACP chambered in actually started out as 32 ACP designs, and got adapted to the 380 ACP. They made that transition with varying degrees of success, kinda like S&W adapting first their K-frame revolver platform to the 357 Magnum, and after SAAMI pulled the magnum revolver calibers' teeth c. 1990 we see the 357 Magnum in J-frame housings.

 

[PED1945]

Since 1975, I have been using a 2 cavity Lyman 311252 mold for loading 32 Auto. It has worked well in several different 32 Autos. Since then these bullets have also been used to load 32 S&W, 32 S&W Long. My only remaining 32 is a Unique RR51.

 

[CZ93X62]

Ah, the "classic" 32 ACP cast bullet by Lyman. My version "cleans up" in a .311" H&I die, and I fill one groove with 50/50 lube. Perfect in both my Walther PP and Roth-Steyr M-1908.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I shot some of mine to prove a powder charge/ function in the bullet box. Hoping to shoot later this week.
CW