38 S&W Adventures and Faux Pas

Outpost75

Active Member
Have been thinking about an H&R Handi chambered in 38 S&W but the case it too short to fit my .223" rem chamber: best they can do is a 357 mag

I had John Taylor do for me a .38 S&W barrel to fit my pre-WW2 H&R .44 smoothbore Garden Gun. We dubbed it the "Lettuce Protector." He used a Green Mountain 10-inch twist 9mm Gunsmith Special blank, and chambered it with a Manson reamer I had ground having a rifle type throat- .pdf attached. I left the reamer with John after the job, and he can fabricate a complete barrel for you, not a stub job. John has determined that the .38 S&W is the ideal round to restore antique British rook rifles to service, because it is similar to the obsolete .360 No. 5 and .380 rook rifle rounds, factory ammo, brass, bullet molds and load data are readily available and there is no +P ammo produced in this caliber, so the 14,000 psi SAAMI MAP of the .38 S&W is ideal for tiny soft-iron black powder actions. Just the ideal companion for your Webley & Scott MkIV or S&W Victory Model for walking the farm.

Mine shoots well with factory 146-grain LRN ammo as well as with the Accurate 36-190T. No issues using SOFT lead .360" bullets in normal handgun loads squeezing down in the .355 groove diameter barrel. Does bump pressure a bit, but well within design limits of the H&R single shot, for which I also have .45 ACP, .38 Special +P and .44-40 barrels.

While there is a very modest velocity gain when the .38 S&W cartridge is fired from a rifle, its potential for producing a supersonic, “cracking loud” report is very limited. This is because the expansion ratio of a longer rifle barrel exceeds the limitations of its tiny powder charge for adiabatic expansion. The result is that standard-pressure, smokeless .38 S&W revolver loads, at less than 14,000 psi, using fast-burning powders like Bullseye, produce ballistics from a rifle very much like standard pressure .38 Special fired from a 6-inch revolver.

While I did some very limited testing with +P loads I really had little interest in trying to see how powerful a load I can assemble for my .38 S&W Lettuce Protector, because I have other rifles which scratch that itch. The objective was to use the same ammo in rifle and revolver. I wanted to enjoy a mild, small-capacity cartridge producing ballistics like a large-caliber air rifle, exploiting a heavy, blunt, slow bullet, producing low noise, without any need for a "can," being accurate out to 50 yards. I really wanted to explore the possibility of using as heavy a bullet as could be launched at the lowest velocity which would reliably exit the barrel, which we found to be about 600 fps. Charges which have proven accurate in both rifle and revolver are 2 grains of TiteGroup or Bullseye with Accurate 36-190T bullet or 2.5 grains with the 36-159H.

Accurate 36-159H Accurate 36-190T

The resulting "Lettuce Protector" is 34-1/2 inches long and weighs 4-1/2 pounds. I have found it best to utilize an "optimum trajectory" in which the maximum bullet rise over its 100 yard useful trajectory does not exceed about 3 inches. I take a 6:00 hold on a typical small game animal until the front sight bead about covers the critter, and then if it does, I just blot him out and shoot. With the .38 S&W cartridge this works out to a 75 yard zero and a 90-yard "point blank" range at which the path of the trajectory drops about 3" below line of sight. The maximum useful range where rifle velocity decays to about the same level as a revolver near the muzzle is 150 yards, with 36 inches of drop, about the height of an Army E silhouette if you must discourage or repel marauding, Wild Indians, Sasquatch, or Zombies invading your garden vegetable patch.

Ten-shot groups fired with factory loads and simple open sights average 3" about at 50 yards, and 6" at 100 yards. This is about the same as I do with an open-sighted lever-action cowboy rifle. Entirely adequate for making "gong music" on the steel targets and scaring Mr.Wabbit.

Results with typical cast bullet and factory .38 S&W loads in rifle and typical revolvers are shown in the accompanying table.

Table 1
.38 S&W Loads Fired In Revolver and Rook Rifle Showing Effect of Cylinder Gap and Barrel length:

Firearm____________S&W 32-1____Colt_______Ruger____S&W Victory___Rook Rifle

Barrel length__________2”____________4”_________4”____________5”___________20”
Cyl. Gap_____________0.005_________0.005______.005________.009___________Solid bbl.
Vintage Ammunition__________________________________________________________
FN 82 Mk2z_FMJ_____577,8 Sd_____616, 10_____618,19 ____571,22____Bullet Stuck in Bbl!
Kynoch 146LRN______623,26 ______649, 31_____650,22_____685, 22_____ 848, 7
WRA 146LRN(WW2)__659, 10______701, 13_____727, 5_____681, 14______787, 14
Rem-UMC Colt NP150FN_668, 22__768, 14____765, 15____754, 10______ 920, 14 “Dogbone box”

Modern Commercial Ammunition
Fiocchi 146 LRN_______706, 12_____809, 21_____820, 23_____709, 24____985, 9
R-P 146 LRN__________603, 14_____674, 12______697,18_____627,22_____790,10
W-W 146 LRN_________586, 18____593, 36______662, 29_____620, 19____801, 12

Table 2
.38 S&W Hand Loads Fired in Revolver And "American Rook Rifle"

Firearm__________S&W 32-1 Terrier___ S&W Reg.Police.____S&W Victory___Rook Rifle

Barrel length__________2”________________4”_____________________5”_______________20”
Cyl. Gap_____________0.005_____________.005___________________.009_____________Solid bbl.

Accurate 36-159H
1.7 Bullseye__________470, 18___________495, 27______________493, 23__________630, 32, Min. to Exit Barrel
2.5 Bullseye__________629, 8____________697, 12_______________680, 25_________856, 22_Fact.dup.load
6.3#2400____________696, 26___________801, 20_______________784, 24_________1058, 23 Do Not Exceed
Magtech (Brazil) 158-grain LRN .358” diameter, soft lead cupped base
2.1 TiteGroup________550, 34___________632, 20_______________614, 17_________762, 14 Very quiet in rifle
Accurate 36-190T
1.7 Bullseye________485, 9_____________545, 15________________496, 18_________560, 23 Min. to Exit Barrel, report like air rifle.
2.1 Bullseye________547, 15____________630, 16________________572, 15_________681, 10
3.0 AutoComp______668, 4____________732, 15________________674, 20_________825, 16 Do Not Exceed
2.5 Bullseye________645, 10___________686, 5_________________704, 8___________800, 11 Do Not Exceed
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Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
People have done something similar with the 32-20 (and I think 32 S+W Long) and the 311440 150FN. Subsonic "Thumper" loads. Something to be said for the idea IMO.
 

Outpost75

Active Member
A "Rook Rifle" using modest-powered cartridges is a STELLAR idea.

I was introduced to the concept many years ago. Here is a picture of a real English rook rifle, originally a .360 No. 5, restored by Lucas Geiger and rechambered for .38 Special wadcutter for Dennis Carlini. Factory wadcutters get about 900 fps from its 25 inch barrel and report is modest like a .22 LR firing standard velocity.
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