44-40 cast bullets

RBHarter said:
"Why are loads lawyered down" , " because better measuring tools . Loads were changed not because of the peak pressures but because of when & where they peaked and how long it lasts ".

Of course there 7 because all the Benchrest guys are , and neck sizing is stupid guys say "no it's liability".
Click to expand...

The Lawyers did not "win" until 1926 when SAAMI was established. The Winchester Cartridge Engineering Office had been using a max pressure of 13,000cup for the 44-40 since at least 1917...and as can be seen, the 44-40, both black powder and smokeless was stable at 12,000 to 13,000 by 1884.

So not exactly. While testing standards changed, that was my thinking as well until the test I made that showed otherwise. With the 44-40, 40gr of black powder (black "Sporting" powder) is 40gr of black powder...so why did the pressures change? They did not change because of "new" testing, they changed because the cartridge design changed. It was not the pressure tools that needed changing, it was the evidence of higher pressures that needed changing.

The 45 Colt early Frankford loads changed because a full charge of black powder was not nice to the folded head cases used. Certainly nothing to do with the pressure testing equipment. Testing equipment was not needed to "fix" the problem, only to record the pressures. Meanwhile the civilian options used the improved centerfire cartridges that withstood the full charges with the use of a far superior case design. By 1889, the 45 Colt cartridge was offered with the 250gr bullet and three black powder charge options. Contrary to popular beliefs in "no smokeless powder for the Colt revolvers", smokeless powder 45 Colt cartridges were offered by 1901...and offered the 255gr lead bullet by 1912.

The 1895 44-40 smokeless powder charge created LESS pressures than that of the 1884 black powder option...but not by much. This was also true with the use of that powder in other black powder cartridge...like the 45-70-405.

This Dupont round powder keg (red-smokeless No.1, green-black shotgun powder or blue-smokeless No.2) "Wrapper" form is dated 1899. No telling when it was actually used (maybe after 1912), but the keg was no longer used after about 1925. I have further details to the website here. You always see the kegs, but never have you seen the wrapper data sheet. If you know the keg, look at the bottom and see what it says to read.

unnamed (1).jpg
 
Last edited:
CZ93X62 said:
Many thanks, Mr. Austin. Mr. Barnes' perspective was two-dimensional; your research adds much-needed depth.

My 44/40 WCF arms are an 1897-vintage '73 carbine that served my family for 40 years to harvest venison. After 1933 when black bears were introduced to the San Bernadino NF where my paternal grandparents lived, the carbine dissuaded the 'Furry freebooters', using John Muir's epithet. The OEM griz had been extirpated by 1920, but the blacks wasted no time in becoming as large a nuisance in their place.

I'd like to keep my 44/40 loads on the light side of 1200 FPS in that 130-year-old levergun from an abundance of caution. Those same loads get close to 900 FPS in the Uberti Cattleman, and that's healthy enough to suit me--that's Glock 23 oomph level.

I don't see myself venturing into Win '92/Marlin '94 Country with the 44/40. I have a '92 in 44 Magnum that covers that niche nicely. My Marlins in 32/20 and 25/20 are excellent rat whackers when run in HV mode. I have no idea how many muleys were grassed with that '73 during the Depression to keep meat on the table. Grandma said there was always venison on the table during those years.
Click to expand...


I am a big fan of using fast powders to hit that speed range in my carbine. One has to be reasonable though, if you find yourself wanting to max out the fast powder you’re likely better off changing to a lower powder speed that does the job with less pressure, or at least a more gradual pressure curve.

I liken it to changing gears in a standard transmission. We don’t stay at high RPMs in a lower gear, we shift up a gear as appropriate.

If one is content with a modest to medium dose of a fast powder then I think they’re a happy load. They’re often quite clean and have sedate recoil impulse and can be quite accurate in the right load.

All that said, I am still using the fast powders for my .44-40 loads as they’re target shooting and plinking loads for me. I have used medium burn powders but not too much. I should revisit them to actually develop a hunting load should I want to use the carbine there down the road. So many projects and so little time!
 
Tom W said:
I am a big fan of using fast powders to hit that speed range in my carbine. One has to be reasonable though, if you find yourself wanting to max out the fast powder you’re likely better off changing to a lower powder speed that does the job with less pressure, or at least a more gradual pressure curve.

I liken it to changing gears in a standard transmission. We don’t stay at high RPMs in a lower gear, we shift up a gear as appropriate.

If one is content with a modest to medium dose of a fast powder then I think they’re a happy load. They’re often quite clean and have sedate recoil impulse and can be quite accurate in the right load.

All that said, I am still using the fast powders for my .44-40 loads as they’re target shooting and plinking loads for me. I have used medium burn powders but not too much. I should revisit them to actually develop a hunting load should I want to use the carbine there down the road. So many projects and so little time!
Click to expand...

Exactly!!

Use the powder (pressure/velocity) for the correct results!

from slow to fast

Rifles - Reloder 7
Carbines - (Reloder 7)/4198/4227/Unique
Pistols - Unique/Bullseye

Winchester Factory Loads to 1926
Rifles/Carbines - Black Powder/Smokeless Rifle Powder Dupont No.2/Rifle Smokeless Sharpshooter
Pistols - Black Powder/Smokeless Powder Dupont No.2/Rifle Smokeless Sharpshooter

Links
Early Smokeless Powders handloaders used
44-40 Powder Timeline
 
Last edited:
Nothing wrong with using the fast pistol speed powders as long as you don’t need all the speed and power a carbine can deliver. It turns it in to a pop gun but that’s fun for futzin around. I use them a lot.
 
Tom W said:
Nothing wrong with using the fast pistol speed powders as long as you don’t need all the speed and power a carbine can deliver. It turns it in to a pop gun but that’s fun for futzin around. I use them a lot.
Click to expand...

Yeap, thus cowboy action shooting.....shoot all year long for the fraction of the cost!
 
loving all the old information.
i recognized almost every powder in that chart shown, and their uses,,,, except 308 that's one i haven't seen before.
 
In case no one has noticed yet, Winchester has yet again decreased the velocity of the 44-40 JSP hunting loads to that just above the 44 Henry.

44 Henry - 1,125fps
44-40 - 1,130fps

2025!!!
11.png
 
If anyone has good loads for 200-220 grn bullets with RL 7 that are safe in a modern 1873 rifle clone action, I am all ears! And if they are safe in that rifle, sure they would also be good in my vintage 1916 dom Winchester 92 Saddle Ring carbine! TIA
 
oscarflytyer said:
If anyone has good loads for 200-220 grn bullets with RL 7 that are safe in a modern 1873 rifle clone action, I am all ears! And if they are safe in that rifle, sure they would also be good in my vintage 1916 dom Winchester 92 Saddle Ring carbine! TIA
Click to expand...

LINKS:
25.5gr Reloder 7
215gr to 221gr 43-214A cast
Uberti Winchester 73' with a 6x Malcolm scope
Reloder 7 and the 240gr lead bullet

OTHER LINKS:
The Stuart brother's 1876 500 yard targets with the Winchester 73 and black powder.
John Kort's 300 meter black powder shots with a Marlin model 1894 and a 9x scope

Caution:
  • Make sure you slug your barrels and do not use too large of a diameter bullet in the older guns that may have smaller bores.
  • .001" under diameter is perfect for powder charges that produce enough pressures to expand the soft lead bullet into the bore.
  • For using low pressure loads and hard cast lead, use .001" over bore diameter.
  • I use .428" diameter soft cast bullets in a .429" bore for the below photos.


unnamed (3).jpgunnamed (4).jpg



unnamed (2).jpgunnamed (5).jpg
unnamed (1).png
 
I better do some measuring. I got into the bad habit of using .431" bullets in a Rossi SRC in .44-40 because .428" bullets key holed. .431" shot splendidly. The Rossi is gone, sadly, but the young man that has it loves it so that ain't so bad.
I only have a 73 repro and a Cattleman left in .44-40. I launched off onto a .38-40 tangent where .402" seems to dominate.
I know there's a Master Caster mould here for .428" perhaps I better do some slugging and pin gauging and see what's what.
 
L Ross said:
I better do some measuring. I got into the bad habit of using .431" bullets in a Rossi SRC in .44-40 because .428" bullets key holed. .431" shot splendidly. The Rossi is gone, sadly, but the young man that has it loves it so that ain't so bad.
I only have a 73 repro and a Cattleman left in .44-40. I launched off onto a .38-40 tangent where .402" seems to dominate.
I know there's a Master Caster mould here for .428" perhaps I better do some slugging and pin gauging and see what's what.
Click to expand...

The Rossi should be "strong enough" to where it does not matter. The 73' or old "weak actions" could be in question...aside for the 73' replicas being available in 44 Magnum.

Anyway, with all that aside, oversized bullets create higher than normal pressures. Oversized hard cast really create higher than normal pressures per a given charge. This is why handloading manuals show both bore size for the testing weapon and bullet diameter used...as well as the AOL etc. It all has to do with Pressures created.

In my testing, .4255"/.426" JSP Winchester/Remington bullets created a lot less pressure than when I used .430/.431 diameter bullets...all in a .429" bore. Using the same charge of powder (I forget which powder) for each different diameter bullet.

Here are examples I acquired using IMR-4227. The test barrel bore is .429", and 20" long.

18.5gr AND the Speer 4425 bullet is directly in the manual. The 4425 is .429".

The Winchester JSP is .4255" and the Lase Cast Hard Cast "Magma" is .429".
The Sierra is .4295" and the Hornady XTP is .430.

This is why barrel bore, bullet hardness, diameter and design are important. Also note that Lyman list that one load as a Group II load...but..... If that load is used in a tight bore it could get a lot higher, which is typical in the old guns that have tight bores. Many old guns also have short chambers...which can also increase pressures. This means that the bullet sits much closer to the lands, than in modern guns where the bullet may sit further back.
In the below photo, look at the ".424" on the left and the ".429" on the right. Left is a short and tight chamber, right is a long chamber. Also shows the importance of cartridge AOL.

unnamed (6).jpg


PSI/CUP - I use the term "estimated" because these are my test results...using PSI.
Untitled.png
 
Last edited:
if it's the same 200gr. Magma mold i have it squeaks in at 428 with ww alloy.
i have to lube size then punch it up to 430 in a swage die for the Rossi.
 
fiver said:
if it's the same 200gr. Magma mold i have it squeaks in at 428 with ww alloy.
i have to lube size then punch it up to 430 in a swage die for the Rossi.
Click to expand...
I believe I have two 44 Magma moulds. One for the .428" size intended for the .44-40 and one drops .431" for .44 spl and the like.
 
L Ross said:
I believe I have two 44 Magma moulds. One for the .428" size intended for the .44-40 and one drops .431" for .44 spl and the like.
Click to expand...

I never did buy any Magma molds.....I would still love to have a Master Caster just to see how consistent I can get the bullet weights to drop. I think my bullet casting skills are still full of holes...LOL
 
RicinYakima said:
Ladle casting witha single cavity mould will out do the machines every time. It just takes practice!
Click to expand...

L Ross said:
I believe that is a fact. When I am going for maximum precision I ladle cast.
I wouldn't have a Master Caster if it hadn't all but fallen in my lap.
I only use it for "pistol" bullets. It's fast and has a 40 lb. pot and a squirrel cage fan.
Click to expand...

Ah yes, good news not having to learn a new method!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.