45-70 hot rod .........

RBHarter

West Central AR
Er something .

I was reading about Makers Bullets and a fellow running a solid copper 200 gr 2600 fps . There was no mention of his platform , I suspect a Ruger or Mauser .

This feeds into my desire to run the 1895 up to 460 Smith levels with a 250 or get the Barnes 275 TACX look alike 400ish done at Mountain since I can't get enough interest to get it done at NOE .

Look at that I can have drift in the opening post ........
I do have the 250 gr Rapine mould and a number 195-230 gr pistol bullets . For setting speed records a paper patch 195 SWC ought to do with a case full H322 or something close , with a 35kpsi limit for the Marlin it should be pretty easy to get well north of 2300 fps since a Colts with a 350 will make 1280 under 20,000 (more wandering a whole different project that made me get the 45-70 in the first place) .

This is just a dalliance and most likely won't leave the board . Although reaching the X frame levels in a rifle should be easy with the 250 and I may go ahead using 300 gr jacketed data as a starting point . The nose profile is no help and 458s don't break the .280 BC until they get to 400+ gr so really it's just an excuse to burn powder and say it was done .

So input , have I hit most of the futility high points ?
Suggestions on powders ? H322 , H4198 , I4895 , 3031 , Unique :) , screened BP?
 

Will

Well-Known Member
3031 will get you up there pretty good as well as a case full of Varget. I’ve played this game before with 300gr bullets and learned not to do it anymore.

In my guide gun it’s absolutely abusive.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
I had that problem with a 350 in a 5.5# SR Mauser 45 Raptor . 250s were far less assertive . I wonder how an H&G #130 would go papered . Just a challenge to me , I don't have enough time in this cannon to project a solution .
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
I got some .452 rnfp's that weigh about 165grs..
I'd imagine a brass rod and a hammer would pack a large amount of benchmark in the case if you really wanna set some speed records.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Papered H&G #130 over a bunch of 4198 should be interesting, I'd consider a wad stack under the bullet too.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
This might be an opportunity to look at something like 1680 or maybe the last of the 10x . Consult the 460 is zero help as it's basically all scoop it ful of H110 stick your bullet in and go these loads are mostly under 45kpsi . There's just so much case and so much cylinder and so little piston . I suppose I could start at 8-10 Red Dot and run the naked 250 until it quits and repeat with Unique and then repeat with H322 H4198 and see if I have anything else to shoot .

I had some QL data for the 45 Colts with several rifle powders but that was going heavy in a small case in a rifle 322 was a full case at my imposed 20, kpsi limit .

Has anyone worked with H4198 enough to be able to describe pressure levels from book data in terms of visible indicated pressure like where mummies start and stop ?
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
not in the 45-70.
but my gut feeling is you'd have to be real low for it to have any unburned pieces.
down in the 19-20gr area anyway and even there I bet a little Dacron would clean it up..
 

Intheshop

Banned
My .02 on H4198.... to get real buggers(mummies),not a carbon layer....

You have to be way down on the volume,or something dramatically wrong with the bullet size/fit. At least in the 1/2 dz chamberings I use it in. To the point that,and gotta be careful here with this.... that anyone looking down in a charged case.... "should know better". Meaning,it ain't a dedicated pistol powder like Bullseye or whatever.

If it's position sensitive then,I need to go get in some competition cause..... it performs SO well at Lyman book values,from an ACCURACY standpoint that,this aspect just does not concern me. "Noise" within the system....fit,alloy,bullet quality,rifle dynamics,far outweigh position.

Once past book values, you really need to be on your game WRT watching for pressure signs. May not be sharp as a "cliff edge",but it's something that shows how other aspects of the load can effect it. Jam/fit/size manipulation can and does show up with both 4198's in this respect,and that's a good thing. Watch the telltale signs(primer flatten) and as soon as the velocity increase STARTS to stumble,and primers begin to flatten is where the fun begins. This is where you get to play with the other aspects of your load. Something like reducing the amt of lube can show up. A tiny change in shape(bump)or fit can effect it,in a good way,to allow a little more increase in accuracy and velocity without adding pressure. I like it and have come to use it for a "stepping stone" meaning,its a gage powder that sets my bullet to chamber/barrel relationship. Then hand off to slower powders. Just a back door approach to higher velocity. Good luck with your project.

And regarding "drift in an opening post"..... that's drifting on cold tyres. Yes,it's a drift but not like when they're up to temp. It's about intensity. There's an art to a drift.... you can use it to save a corner in the form of "squaring it off".
 
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RBHarter

West Central AR
I've used just enough H4198 to know it has a flatish peak and a long climbing push in the little AR class cases . Which is probably why my Dad didn't like it in the 22-250 but thought it would be good in 308 ...... That is in 6.8 on the heavy end of course and giving me gas issues in the form of just barely not enough .
I've stuck to old , fat and slow , broad application powders . I4350 that one I could tell field stories about over 338 it falls on it's face mostly ....
There's no rifle powder data for the 460 Smith and really no light weight data for the 45-70 unless it's coming from new sources .
Hornady has a new digital book . Speer may have some .

Writing helps my though process ..... I suppose I could look at the latest Hornady Lev/flex supper bullet data and maybe Barnes . At least there's test data to start with and I will be cautious , paper patch jacketed start loads , greased back off a little more . Don't do anything any stupider than needed .
 

Intheshop

Banned
Another finer point about a "gage" powder(define it as you see it,"happens" to be 4198 for me.... could be another powder for someone else).

Same mould/rig..... but,the bullet drops a cpl grains one or other from the last "batch". We'll assume everything else is held dang close meaning,other aspects of the load stayed the same. How that powder level worked with the last batch vs new? Keep good notes on bullet weight and any other nuances of the casting.

I just cast up some 311041's with a very special,old mould I've been using for well,ever. The last batch of 200 were 179g as the broadest representation dropped weight. 28g of H4198 produces ragged holes in 30-06.New batch is 177.5, so have noted this in the rig's load book and will see what effect it has,@28g.
 
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RBHarter

West Central AR
I've seen that as well . In the past I was bad about complete notes . Then I over killed it all , divorce , moves , etc , ect life . I'm taking this golden opportunity to have theme books for each gun group , cartridge group , or individual with probably a couple just note books with all of the stuff that filtered out into "just the facts" give or take storyline and graphs . I'm at the age where it's probably best to consider who's getting what over the next 30 or so yr .
 

FrankCVA42

Active Member
Have a Ruger #1 in 45/70 and loaded up some 300JHP's when you could still buy Remington bulk bullets. Starting loads were equal to factory ammo. 1800 fps with a 300 gr jhp. Nice mild mannered load. Once I hit 2000 fps that little mild mannered #1 started turning into a bucking bronco. Wasn't much fun either. Went home and all the remaining loads were disassembled and waiting for me to get a new mold from Accurate. My lyman bullet will barely make .459 and since the barrel slugs out at .459 not much accuracy either. The #1 has two constrictions in the barrel. One where the barrel band sling swivel is and the other is where the front sight is. Ran a real tight patch with Hoppes through the barrel and that is how I found them. Has had a few hundred rounds of jacketed factory ammo through it,but doesn't seem to have made any difference. Frank
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
Frank that's pretty much what I learned from a 6# rifle in 45 Raptor . A 350 stopped being fun over 1800 fps .

As above I saw someone shooting a 250 copper bullet super fast and thought " I bet I could do that with a cast bullet" .
 

Rick H

Well-Known Member
385gr. RF at 1800 fps is all I can handle in my Marlin Guide Gun. Mostly hunt deer with those 300gr. Remington Jkt. at the same velocity.
I wanted the 385gr. for a bear hunt that didn't happen.
 

david s

Well-Known Member
I've hot rodded my Browning model 1886's but slightly differently. I push a 420 cast to just about 2000 fps out of the rifles 26" barrel. There was an article in the August 2003 HANDLOADER issue # 224 that gave different pressure level handloads (Trapdoor, 35000 PSI, 43500 PSI, ect.) and bullet weights for the 45-70. I don't currently have the issue or I'd offer to send a copy of it. You might find it interesting.
 

CZ93X62

Official forum enigma
Nope. Ruger #1 @ 7-1/4# stoked with Hornady 350 grain SPs @ 2050-2100 FPS. Loose fillings, detached retinas, shoulder blades met in the middle. Too much fun at my age, should have done those stunts in my 20s when I was still immortal.
 

RBHarter

West Central AR
I've hot rodded my Browning model 1886's but slightly differently. I push a 420 cast to just about 2000 fps out of the rifles 26" barrel. There was an article in the August 2003 HANDLOADER issue # 224 that gave different pressure level handloads (Trapdoor, 35000 PSI, 43500 PSI, ect.) and bullet weights for the 45-70. I don't currently have the issue or I'd offer to send a copy of it. You might find it interesting.

Was that when he too the 45-70 to Africa ? I might have that one .
 

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
My Marlin will handle loads I no longer find desirable to fire. A 420 gr cast bullet at 1650 is all more I need or want. The fact I can get another 150-200 FPS isn’t something I need to know.
Same bullet in the 1350 FPS range is quite pleasant so that is what I use.
 

david s

Well-Known Member
Mr Harter, It may have been around that time. I had a washing machine hose split and ruin magazines that I saved for reference. I made a note in my personal load book and that is the only reason I know what issue it was.