.45 ACP taper crimp update

[9.3X62AL]

Bill's text on prioritization is right on point for this thread/subject. Not every detail needs to be sweated in every operation, but the savvy technician needs to know enough about his venue to be able to recognize 1st-tier priorities from the also-rans. Lacking that knowledge base/experience, learn sourcing and data from which you can make good judgements.

I have been reloading metallic caliber ammo for almost 40 years. For at least the first half of those years, I labored in the supposed darkness without a taper crimp die to my name. My 1979-purchased RCBS 45 ACP die set came with seating die cut with a roll-crimping shoulder. It has done first-rate work for many years by adjusting that crimping shoulder to just turn in the case mouth flare and a skoash more, giving a very subtle inward radius to the case mouth. Same deal with the 9mm when I started out with its RCBS die set--it came with a roll-crimp seating die, and I managed to make good ammunition with that allegedly prehistoric tooling.

Along came the 40 S&W about 1989, and at the same time a hue and cry began being raised about taper-crimping vs. roll-crimping (or absence of same) for autopistol ammunition. I thought at the time--and still to a large extent feel this way--that it was Much Ado About Nothing. I didn't get into the 40 S&W Cult until the late 1990s, and while tooling up to refill these empties I learned that RCBS only made taper-crimp seating dies--same deal with the other diemakers I called. Well, CRUD--I ordered the die set, hoping for the best.

Die instructions specified to set the tool to simultaneously seat bullets and set the "proper" taper crimp. My thoughts were that such a course of conduct would yield varying finished cartridge overall lengths and/or distended bullet noses. I wasn't disappointed. That is exactly what happened, and it continued to occur unless and until I made bullet seating and taper crimp setting into discrete die steps. This was and remains unrequired for my 9mm and 45 ACP in the roll-crimp seater dies. No mushroom clouds have appeared on my range sites, no pestilence has been loosed upon gun shops (other than naturally-occurring outbreaks of avarice), and no Inquisitions have been conducted (yet) concerning my egregious heresies described above. Cue up Savonarola.

 

[Ian]

As Bill helped me discover last year, I needed a gunsmith and better magazines more than different loading tools/techniques. Most of what works and what doesn't becomes self-evident shortly with a modicum of thought and experimenting with adjustments, as well as things like just how much do you really need to flare a case mouth (I've been appalled at how much some folks expand/bell their brass), how "much" to crimp, etc.

I have partial-sized my .30-30 brass for 25 years now, against common wisdom that all levergun brass must be FL sized (which makes the laughable assumption that all brands resize to minimum SAAMI specifications). I've been yelled at for roll-crimping my autopistol brass, and a hundred other things that buck conventional wisdom but work better FOR ME.

Still, I learn something new once in a while, and am glad there are people around with a lot more experience than me in certain areas who are willing to share their tried-and-true ways of doing things.

 

[Pistolero]

Got to agree, Al. Taper crimping and seating at the same time does not work well. Of course, some pretty
sorry ammo will actually function reasonably well in a lot of different guns, if reliability and accuracy standards
are not high. Since a majority of pistol shooters seem to be well satisfied with a loud noise most of the time and
a group under 6" at 12 yds with a pistol, many will not be troubled by the inconsistencies.

So, apparently with the new RCBS die sets (to do it properly) you need to set the die up high enough to keep from
hitting the TC taper, seat the bullet and then disassemble the die, pull out the seater plug, readjust the height to
get your TC correct and run the ammo through that cycle. Thank you RCBS for making things a bunch more difficult.
And they apparently do not make a pure TC die any more.

No doubt you can get good ammo with a roll crimp die. As a matter of fact, decades ago when I was learning about
loading .45 ACP, I pulled out an NRA Reloading Handbook, which is a compendium of articles from American Rifleman.
Since the book was purchased in 1968, the articles are largely from the 1950s. One very interesting article was a
brief survey of what the top 2700 Bullseye competitors of the period did to load their ammo. Bullets chosen were almost
exclusively H&G 68 and H&G 130 designs, and I did note that many roll crimped and many taper crimped. These are the
folks setting records nationally in a pure accuracy competition, so the must be making good ammo.

So, I have some ideas of what works well, but will NEVER say that this is the only way to solve that problem. Only that it
is one "known good" solution to the problem. If you are having difficulties with feeding and failures to close, try tightening
your TC with a short taper TC die, it has worked for many. If you have good ammo, and everything is working well, don't worry
about 'breaking the rules' ...... congrats, you are succeeding.

Bill

 

[9.3X62AL]

My RCBS 40 S&W taper crimp/seater die has sufficient "reach" (for lack of a better term) to have the crimp taper backed off for seating--then raise the seating stem fully--reset the crimp taper--and give the cartridge its taper crimp without interference from the seating stem. I load on a Ponsness-Warren P-200, sort of a turret press--if I had a full-on progressive like a Dillon, I would likely just buy another seater die--remove its innards--and call it a TC die by proxy. This would work just as well on the P-W, but it hasn't been a burning need as my shooting has slowed markedly since the vultures and vampires took over the gun/ammo business over the past few years.

 

[Alstep]

Pistolero,
You are exactly right. I had similar problems when I took up IDPA action pistol shooting a few years ago. Tried several bullets and finally settled on the H&G 68 copy bullet, but still had occasional jams. Tried several seating & crimp dies & still had problems. Finally happened to come across an old Bonanza-Forster taper crimp die, and problem solved. I'm now short taper crimping down to .467-.466. Works great in my Colt 70 & Kimber. Took me a year to get it all together.
Al

 

[yodogsandman]

Seating and crimping in separate operations with the RCBS crimp die has made a world of difference for my reloads. Thanks for your suggestions! Reliability is 100%, now!

 

[freebullet]

Never been a fan of taper crimp with lead. In setting the dies I've found its easier/faster to get the right settings from a standard roll crimp die even for 45acp, 9mm, & 380.

Currently my only use for taper crimp is 454 jbull loads.

 

[quicksylver]

Interesting thread....shot IPSC and IDPA a zillion times back around the turn of the century (always wanted to say that).

Most guns used for IPSC were race guns,
38 supers.

The most popular for IDPA were the 1911's.

Some guys used FMJ,some used the new clad bullets and the die hard used cast.

What was determined at practice sessions was that thst common causes of failure to function were these, not necessarily in this order,

1. Thumb too high on grip and touching slide, slowing slide down.
2. Brass not being sized enough to hold bullet, most of us had reverted to using progressive press such as Dillion,
the older carbide dies would size cases much smaller ,actually to the point where you could see the base of the bullet from the outside on a loaded round.
3. The brass having been reloaded to many times, this would inevitably lead to weak brass that would not hold the bullet in place.
4. The spring was not matched to the loads being used, most of us would have at east three different weight spring in our bags.
5. Bad ramps / barrel fit / mag lips. / mag springs , or not cleaning mags and mag springs after each use.
6. AND of course just plain bad reloads.

The method used to determine whether or not there was enough tension or to see if the brass was failing ,we would take a loaded round and push the bullet hard against a hard surface to see if the loaded round would maintain its OAL,
you would not believe the number of reloads that would not pass this test !

I don't think people are aware of how much a loaded round has to go through to get up into battery, especially with a bad ramp.

These days we go and buy our guns all CNC milled but back in the days when race guns and IDPA guns were built by gun smiths all of the dynamics were taken into account when building a gun AND by most shooters.

As for the TC I got to using it because as I said I stopped using carbide dies and sized my cases less, we were very careful and used it sparingly, we made sure there was still sufficient case rim to headspace the load correctly and above all the crimp did not cut into the bullets, that were plated, too deeply.


So my 2 cents, bad crimps are only one factor in the failure to feed, go back to the old carbide dies and NO crimp is necessary.
TC's do help with items 2,3 & 5

Item #1 and #6 can be remedied by better shooting and reloading practices.

#4 I believe is obvious, buy some springs.

What will the above get you ?

Well I won my State IDPA Champion Shoot by paying attention to the above items.

BTW when using the dies that super size the cases ,the longerTC dies should be fine.

Good luck and happy shooting!

 

[smokeywolf]

Great write-up quicksylver.

 

[quicksylver]

Smoky...... Thanks just trying to help.

One other thing to ponder, high cap mags.

Think about what is happening there.

I used a Para P14 Limited with mag extensions for IPSC.

So I got 16 rnds in those poor mags, now consider what I was asking the gun to do , the first eight or so rounds could be pushed into the mag by thumb pressure alone,
for about the next 8 rounds I used a mag loader.

The slide and spring now had to strip and chamber that first round with all that pressure from the mag, after firing the next 6 or so rounds the remaining ammo was under "normal" pressure in the mag.

Most failures to feed would happen in about the first 3-4 rounds when the rounds were under above normal pressure.

Obviously this wasn't such a problem with IDPA, but raised heck in IPSC.

Those race guns were one finely tuned instruments but were only good for about two seasons, got a little pricy at $1,500.00 a pop.

 

[Pistolero]

Hmm... My first racegun was and is a Wilson LE Comp in .38 Super. Send Bill Wilson a
new Colt 1911 and $1700 and he would send you back your racegun in about 4-5 months
which was amazingly fast in those days. That was when a new Colt 1911 was about $600
or better, so figure new cost of $2300 plus shipping both ways back in the middle 80s.

Superb gun, and I have an exact duplicate in .45 ACP, acquired later. Both are accurate
and absolutely reliable with good ammo, I estimate around 70K rounds through each, but
it could be a good bit more, that is the conservative estimate. Still tight, accurate and
perfect function. Both entire lowers were done in industrial hard chrome, uppers are
blued, hard chrome seems to wear not at all, just gets smoother every year.

I have always used RCBS 1980s vintage carbide sizer in my Dillon 450 and 550s. Still need
the old short TC to get 100% reliability, and many others have had the same result. Never saw
.45 ACP or .38 Super brass which "had been reloaded too many times" to get reliable neck
tension and bullet grip, and TC. I have several thousand cases of each with little or no
remaining headstamp due to literally hundreds of extractor peening impacts just wiping out
the headstamp, and they work perfectly. As far as I can tell with my loads there is unlimited
case life or very close to it.

Bill

 

[quicksylver]

Bill....fine guns for sure.
Had one of his Center Fire Bullseye rigs. In 45 ACP.

Guys in my club would put an easy 10,000 rnds through their race guns during the season.

Those rounds were at rifle pressres.

Those were happy days...plenty of bullets,primers and powder and cheap.

 

[quicksylver]

38 Super comp. Right?

 

[Pistolero]

No. Wilson marked the bbl "Super .38". I asked Bill about this, he said that he just
wanted it to be unique, but it did have a .357 groove diam, and headspaced on the
case mouth, so not really to .38 Super SAAMI specs. Also, not a fully supported chamber,
normal bbl, not integral ramp. It was fine with hot loads in any brass but WW, which,
regardless of +P or even +P+ headstamp would either blow or bulge frighteningly with
loads which would run forever in PMC, Rem+P, or Midway headstamp brass. With W571
under a 150 gr commercial pointy SWC, it would reliably make 1230 fps avg., besting
the 180,000 Major power factor of the day. Had to very carefully sort my picked up brass,
inevitably get some WW from someone else, had to triple check, final check every headstamp
before loading into a mag. No WW.
Lowers were finished in Metaloy, as were all internal small parts. I also have a HiPower done
in Metaloy by Bill Laughridge at Cyl & Slide, great gun finish.
Those were great times, wish I could see like I could then.

 

[quicksylver]

Ya the 38 Super brass was a PITA.

Especially with ,what three different rim diam.

Bet you color coded the bottom of your brass, right?

There were so many shooters we had to use two colors, or colors and paterns.

Hey Bill ! Thanks for the memories !

 

[Pistolero]

Yes, originally I marked my brass, but eventually gave up. Many did have multicolored
markings. When you start out having only 50 or 100 total cases, it is a bigger deal to
lose a few than when you have thousands!

In any case - one of the things I learned and many others did, too, was that you need to
TC as a separate operation and inadequate TC was the most common cause of those
last few jams that some folks were getting with their .45 ACP reloads.

It took 30 more years for me to find out that "taper crimp" does not mean the same thing
with different die types. Still learning, and a believer in the "short taper crimp" dies, but not
the "long taper crimp" dies.

 

[quicksylver]

Ya ...following this thread learned something too .....

Thanks....Dan

 

[Ian]

I have personally never worn out a .45 ACP case. Like some of you, I have a few that have had the headstamp peened into obscurity by repeated ejector hits and the extractor grooves appear knurled by so many extractor dings, but if resized correctly they still hold a bullet, and have never been trimmed or chamfered.

 

[Pistolero]

Yeah, Ian. I remember when I first started reloading, didn't fully understand the whole case trimming thing.
Started measuring my .45 ACP cases...... something was wrong! They were ALL "too short", none reached
the "normal" case length...and never got longer. Probably have a Lee inside rod type case trimmer for .45 ACP...
still somewhere, never used, I can't imagine a more useless tool. Oh, well, live and learn.

Bill

 

[RBHarter]

Yeah, Ian. I remember when I first started reloading, didn't fully understand the whole case trimming thing.
Started measuring my .45 ACP cases...... something was wrong! They were ALL "too short", none reached
the "normal" case length...and never got longer. Probably have a Lee inside rod type case trimmer for .45 ACP...
still somewhere, never used, I can't imagine a more useless tool. Oh, well, live and learn.

Bill

I have an answer to that question.
That trimmer is for the Schofield, Colts, Casuall, Savage and 308 that dies of neck,shoulder and mouth splits so you can run it in the moon clip ACP revolver . Just in case you need to get 1 or 2 or 10 more loads out of that piece of brass.