45 colt in a 'tender?

[todd]

since you guys been talking about a 'tender.........

i have a tc contender (original, not g2) in 7-30 waters with a 14" muzzle brake barrel. it was my dad's gun and i don't like the muzzle brake. instead of taking out the 7-30 waters, i was "thinking" of a 45 colt 10" barrel. it will be my deer gun and it will only go to 60+ish yards. i don't want a 45/410 barrel, just a 45 colt. i've heard and seen too many bad things with the 45/410 barrel.

i might try Ed's Contender barrels first just to see if i like the 45 colt. i might load the 45 colt up with black powder.

Ed's Contenders, Thompson Contenders and Encores.

Ed specializes in Thompson Contender barrels and accesories, as well as new, used and collectable frames. Trades welcome.

www.edstc.com

what do you think?

 

[Jeff H]

One (recoil-averse) man's perspective on Contenders and "heavy-hitters:"

I've shot the Contender as a PISTOL in 30 Herrett, 41 Mag and 44 Mag, all ten-inch barrels. I was shooting heavy 44 Mag loads in a OM Super Blackhawk at the time, with no problem at all. They were very manageable - comfortable even.

In the Contender, considering the weight (lack thereof) and the grip style, I did not feel like it was at all as amusing as their owners did. It seemed that there was more perceived recoil than appropriate for the loads I was shooting.

I'm a follower of the order which believes that a 44 or 45 caliber, 250 grain bullet going about 1kfps does a heck of a lot of work without the extra noise and commotion, and that such loads in the Contender would be a grand hunting tool. I don't think a fella needs "Contender-Only" loads for hunting deer, but that's up to the fella doing the hunting.

Me? I'd buy another stock set and get a carbine barrel, but then it's not a handgun any more.

I think the black powder loads would be a hoot, but I also think they'd be quite adequate for some meaningful hunting too.

 

[CZ93X62]

The 45 Colt is a unique caliber, and has the attributes shared by a number of older black powder calibers like the 32/20 WCF and 44/40 WCF. Chief among those quirks is that all three calibers lost a bit of something when they transitioned from The Holy Black to smokeless fuels--usually velocity potential.

The 1870's load in the 45 Colt was 40 grains of 3F black powder, compressed into the balloon-head cases of that era. That charge enabled a 250-255 grain bullet to achieve 1000 FPS from the 7.5" barrel of the issued SAA Colts.

When the conversion was made to smokeless powders in the 45 Colt, ballisticians got some scary surprises via the crusher-method pressure testing of the early 20th Century. The consensus was that velocities should run about 850-875 FPS with the smokeless fuels, and no faster. The smokeless fuels of the day just didn't behave themselves like black powder did. Elmer Keith gave up on the 45 Colt and relegated his hand-cannon R&D to the 44 Special, since the chamber walls of the 44 had pust a bit more metal that the 45 chamber walls did, caliber-to-caliber in the revolvers of his day (S&W N-frames, Colt SAA and New Service).

It took Bill Ruger to allow the 45 Colt to blossom into the modern cartridge performance it is capable of. T/C's Contender is also capable of extending the 45 Colt's capabilities, to levels the user can opt for.

In my Ruger Bishawk, the Lyman 454424 at 1000-1025 FPS is a wonderful load. It's not abusive, but it offers an upgrade to the caliber's 1873-level performance very safely. Modern solid-head 45 Colt cases strain to hold more than 35 grains of Goex 3F Flaming Dirt, compression die or not. Been there/done that/got the flat-faced expander spuds--in 32/20, 44/40, and 45 Colt. It's a fool's errand in modern brass. Just dial back the Ruger/Contender loads a bit with Unique or Herco, or extrapolate to +10% to +15% from Colt SAA levels using those fuels and you'll be in the ball park. DON'T let those loads anywhere near a S&W or Colt revolver. Elmer Keith showed us what not to do.

 

[RicinYakima]

I am presently working on a article about the Peters 40 grain black powder load. As far as I can tell they are the only ones who made it, as every one else used 38 grains of FF rather than 40 of FFF. But only because Ed Harris was kind enough to send me once fired black powder balloon head cases. So far they are 950 f/s from a 4 5/8" repro SAA.

 

[todd]

i was going to go with a 255gr swc or 280gr swc and unique or hs6 along with 2f BP. my days of going very fast is long gone, so i don't think i will be going with contender-only loads.

 

[fiver]

they ain't needed anyway.
a 250 rnfp at 1200 fps is simply a lightweight 45-70. [about what my 18" carbine gives me with 9.3grs of Unique]
900-1000 fps with that much weight is enough for 50 yd deer shooting.

 

[Brad]

Last deer I shot was with my Marlin 45 Colt. A 300 gr bullet at 1100 fps. Deer was not amused.
I view it like fiver, a mini 45-70. I actually got my 45-70 so I could stop feeling the need to make my 45 Colt act like one.

 

[todd]

i had 3 45-70 handi rifles and i shot some deer with them. i sold the first one to finance my divorce. the 2nd one i gave it to my friend's son to hunt with. my friend don't hunt and i got tired of my friend's son asking me to borrow the 45-70, so i gave to him on the promise of some deer meat. which, after 8 or 9 years, he still does. i taught him reloading too. he purchased a Lee kit, a bunch of reloading books and i mentored him. the 3rd went "mysteriously" to my oldest son to hunt hogs with. i guess the hunting gods won't allow me to have a 45-70.....so i'll take my tc encore with a 23" MGM barrel in 444 marlin!!!!

 

[Jeff H]

If a 45 caliber, 250 grain slug going 1kfps from a HANDGUN is sufficient to kill a deer, why wouldn't a 45 caliber, 250 grain slug going 1kfps out of a RIFLE/CARBINE also be sufficient?

Rhetorical question, of course.

Much is made of the fact that a carbine-length barrel will give handgun rounds a significant boost in velocity, and many benefit from that fact to good effect. I do too, but I also look at it as presented in the original stupid question (above) and reason that I can achieve the already sufficient handgun ballistics from the carbine with less powder and less, less stress on brass and less drama - and why not?? Sometimes, enough is enough.

I enjoy a significant boost in velocity with several loads, going from a 3" revolver barrel to a 18" carbine barrel with the 357 Mag. Moderate loads in the revolvers yield true 357 velocities and energies in the carbine. True 357 ballistics are needed nor wanted for mush of what I do, so I often load carbine loads to what would yield rather puny ballistics in the revolvers - to get ENOUGH of what I need from the carbine. In such cases, I'm looking for the ability to shoot more accurately with the carbine, as opposed t o getting more velocity with the carbine.

Many disagree with me on this, but shooting a hot 45 Colt or a 44 Mag from a single-action revovler is MUCH more pleasant than shooting either from a lightweight carbine. When I was shooting the 44 Mag more than all other stuff combined, I could shoot 310 grain RFNs at 1400 fps without developing a flinch, but if I shot factory-level" 240s from a Marlin 1894 carbine, they were painful. Granted, I have some spine issues which make this more of an issue than for most people, but whenever someone says shooting 44 Mags out of a carbine tames it down - I have to disagree. I have a bunch of nerves which are quick to remind me, and then nag for another two weeks after I've done something stupid - meaning something I knew I'd pay for.

'Thing is, if whatever you're getting out of the handgun is a deer-slayer, then those same ballistics from a carbine will be a deer-slayer, and they can be achieved with less powder, stress on the brass and drama. Easier on the gun, easier on the shooter, easier on the wallet.

 

[CZ93X62]

The 45 Colt in its current pressure rating sends Lymans #454190 and #454424 at 825-850 FPS from 4"-4-3/4" barrels. That is a decisive goblin-stopper in its own right. Several agencies in my area authorized the 45 Colt for carry in the 1980s, and the Winchester Silvertip (225 grain STHP @ ~900 FPS, 4" S&W M-25-5) was the Coin Of The Realm back in those days. I was quite envious of guys and gals that were allowed to carry serious calibers. Life got better in mid-1987 with the expansion of caliber choices to include 45 ACP and 9mm, both of which were superior to the 38 Special. Silvertips in 45 ACP and 9mm were our issued ammo, and I liked both. I dropped the 9mm like a bad habit when the sub-sonic/sub-effective/sub-lethal came on stream after the lab-coated Facklerites sold that bill of goods to USA LE concerning the 9mm. Nicely enough, my shop added the 40 S&W not long after the 9mm's neutering, and the 45 ACP ammo was upgraded at the same time. That Ranger SXT 40 S&W and 45 ACP stuff is the real deal. It has been relegated to Winchester White Box status, but is still great ammo. In 45 ACP is is very close to the old WWSTHP ballistics in 45 Colt.

 

[todd]

i have a 500 Linebaugh in my tc encore with a 23" MGM barrel. my load is a 450gr lfn gc with 16.5gr of HS-6 that goes 1235fps. in a 5.5" barrel with the same load, it goes approximately 990fps. with a "real man" load, 450gr lfn gc with 29.0gr of Win296 goes approximately 1260fps from a 5.5" barrel. i could use Win296 and i estimate 1500+fps for a 450gr but why? i don't want a 50 Alaskan or a 500 S&W. i'm happy with my 500L and 1235fps with a 23" barrel.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I have a 10" bull and really like it. Its a dandy for testing loads. It shoots accurately and takes the heaviest of loads.

Mine wears a red dot optic. Factory stocks.

CW

 

[todd]

I have a 10" bull and really like it. Its a dandy for testing loads. It shoots accurately and takes the heaviest of loads.

Mine wears a red dot optic. Factory stocks.

CW

my 500L started out with Skinner sights but i just didn't like them, so now it's a 2-7x Leopold. i have a reflex sight for my ruger sbh but i put One-Hole Sights on it.

Ruger One Hole Sights | Warren Custom Outdoor - Unique Made in USA products for the outdoorsman

Warren Custom Outdoor - Unique Made in USA products for the outdoorsman

www.warrencustomoutdoor.com

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I also have two of those "ONE HOLER" rear sites!

They work well too.

CW

 

[Bret4207]

If a 45 caliber, 250 grain slug going 1kfps from a HANDGUN is sufficient to kill a deer, why wouldn't a 45 caliber, 250 grain slug going 1kfps out of a RIFLE/CARBINE also be sufficient?

Nothing more needs to be said. It's the magnum discussion all over again.

 

[Missionary]

Impact velocity, lead mix and shape of nose.
Last corn cruncher I popped with a handgun (DW 375 SM 8" to duplicate a 38-55 BP load) was at 15 yards. 255 gr. Idea; 375448 chugging along at 1250 fps. Broadside through both lungs, top of heart, ribs plowing a deep hole into the ex corn field. Easy recurve bow shot. I was up in a big oak.
At 100 yards that slug may not have exited but still would have been eaten back strap that evening.
At 150 yards I would have eaten another apple and threw the core out downwind and waited some.

 

[Ben]

When I was 25 yrs. old and lacked a lot of reloading experience and wisdom, I once owned a T/C Contender, 10" oct. barrel , 45 Colt. I fired the 454424 with a load of 2400 that I won't discuss the details of on this forum .

Hint.......The forearm would often times jump off.

Ben

 

[todd]

When I was 25 yrs. old and lacked a lot of reloading experience and wisdom, I once owned a T/C Contender, 10" oct. barrel , 45 Colt. I fired the 454424 with a load of 2400 that I won't discuss the details of on this forum .

Hint.......The forearm would often times jump off.

Ben

i was bit young than that and i wanted a 300 win mag, but i only had my rem m700 mountain rifle in '06. so i did what any young and dumb guy did, he made the '06 fire to 300 win mag velocities. just 'cause the max load in the book, doesn't mean max load. so i started with a 180gr hornady rn with imr "don't remember the number) at a max load and i went up 1/2 grain of powder. and another 1/2 grain, another 1/2 grain.......i stopped when the case was split and i subtracted 1/2 grain of powder and i found the max load. CUP? whats that? chrony? huh? did you happen to notice the primers? what? oh they were pierced, nuthin to worry about.

i thank God and the m700 for my face and hands and my life. i shiver and the hairs of my neck stand up at the time i did it. STUPID and IMBECILE are some the words i did. although i did say "copulate myself" a time or three.

 

[CZ93X62]

As my years lengthen, I find that the 240-275 grain 44 and 45 bullets stop being fun and start being work at about the speed of sound-1119 FPS or so. I like Mark Twain's observation in this venue--"Work consists of what a body is obliged to do; play consists of what a body is not obliged to do." (from The Adventures of Tom Sawyer).

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I have taken enough deer and pigs with cast in 45 Colt to know Ill take a WFN 300 @ 825/850 over a WFN 250g @ 1000. 8 days a week.