.45Colt BlkHk Heavy Loads; why ?

[Matt]

I guess I’ve had bad luck with Winchester brass. Photo below shows Winchester .41 Magnum brass that I bought in the red and white component boxes in the late 70s or early 80s. Bought 10 boxes because the price was right and 41 Magnum anything was tough to find at the time. The body split shown is from the second firing; Both loads were mild, 220 grain SWC at about 1100 FPS. I’ve lost 2/3 of these cases in the last 30 or so years. The 150 or so I have left seem to be the good ones.



I’ve got a couple hundred Starline waiting their turn.

 

[Walks]

I too have had problem with "Winchester" marked brass.
The older stuff, Headstamped "W-W" , "Super-X" or "Super-Speed" is still going strong.
The 3 boxes of Remington .45Colt brass I bought with My .45 Blkhk in 1977 are still going strong, 141 cases left. But no hot loads. That was reserved for W-W brass.

 

[CZ93X62]

<----BIG believer in Bisley grip for hard-kicking S/A calibers, or even the gentler rounds. Google-fu on "Huntington grip mod" as above will occur shortly.

Brass life......Federal brass and ammo has always been a tough find hereabouts. other than "American Eagle" ammo and 12/20 gauge dove loads. (4 more shopping days 'til Dove Opener on Tuesday. "Dove Opener" is ALWAYS capitalized, just so ya know). The only Federal brass I've had much use of was in 308, the empties from my worksite bolt rifles that started life as 168 grain Matchking/GM Match. It was easier to run through F/L size dies than W-W, and a lot easier than LC mil-spec, fired from same chambers. The FC held up OK in bolt rifles and the M1A, but the HK-91 tore it up even worse than it did W-W and LC brass. The port buffer didn't help a bit with the rim disfigurement, either. I didn't run hot loads, either--150 J-words atop 47.0 grains of WW-748, and 45.5 grains of same fuel matched the GMM loads with the 168 Matchkings. Primer pockets did fine (WLR caps) for 6-8 loadings.

 

[Walks]

I changed over My Blkhks to the SBH Dragoon style grip frame long before the Bisley came out.

 

[RBHarter]

I wanted a 45 Colts and they were scarce at best when I found the 7.5" BH Bicentennial I bought it . No regrets . I have run it up some and quickly found I didn't like the abuse on me and it tanks the base pin out ......new parts still does it .

Back on track . I see the hot loaded Ruger as more a stretched ACP taking advantage of the greater capacity .
My prime load for hunting was a 454424 , the Lyman was 257 the NOE is 250 , or the 452-255 Lee @ 265 at 1025-1050 fps . It's only 19.5 kpsi to get there , it doesn't upset the base pin and it'll run right through 3' of pig out to 45 yd or so . I dabbled in heavies for a subsonic rifle trading weight for speed . The 350 at 680 in the BH was actually pretty tame and almost cowboyish in the rifle at 860 . I may revisit this and see if I can get 950 in the rifle and close to 800 fps in the BH .

Having been shooting the BH for 10 years I'll say that for me having the Colts run a little hot is akin to shooting loads that you know darn well are 38++P+ in your 357 . They're a little spicy but you're not going to beat up a gun designed for a steady diet of 35kpsi loads with a 25 kpsi load . The Limbaugh test to destruction reflected the 42kpsi failure point of other testing in 45 cal so a lifetime of of 23-25kpsi , way over the 18 kpsi of the standard , most likely isn't going to hurt anything either .

I drive it there because that's where I get the 6 chambers talking and I'm not breaking things .

The 92's won't feed RP , even nickle , and it grinds coming out of the BH .WW , PMC , even FC all run smooth and eject slick it's just RP . As for life I'm on 30 some cycles of the original 100 pieces of factory WW . With loads ranging from 7.5 gr Unique to 18.5 or 19.0 gr of H110 under that 265 gr Lee .

 

[Ian]

14KPSI is the standard max average for the Colt's. I think 18 is the ACP and/or .38 Special but I hit my head pretty hard yesterday. A lot of book data and handloaders flat out ignore the 14K and shoot loads approaching 20 in SAA clones not even realizing it. Certain gun writers have further added a false sense of security by publishing articles condoning such things as 8 grains of Unique under a .260 grain bullet seated to 1.575" OAL, which is certainly well over maximum for old SAAs and toggle-link rifles. Weaker guns is the realm I live in, but if I had only Ruger revolvers and Browning or Marlin type actions and modern Henrys I'd standardize to at least 16KPSI loads.

 

[Walks]

I guess I lucked out on .45Colt Loads for My Colt in .45Colt.
The #452424 mold that I ended up with was too long in the nose to chamber in My Colt when crimped in the groove.
So I used either the #454190 or #452374.
This allowed warmer loads to be separated by what wouldn't fit in the Colt's chambers.
The #452424 was reserved for the Blackhawk and M25-5. And later Vaquero's. And I added the RCBS 45-270-SAA.
I tried that Bullet in the New Vaquero when they came out in 2005. It didn't fit the cylinder length of the new revolver.

So I come around to where I started. I tried some warm .45Colt Loads in days past.
Still see no reason to hot load the .45Colt.

So if I need a Big Hot revolver load ?

It'll be a .44Mag.

 

[RBHarter]

The reason they get away with it is that the modern revolvers are often built around a 45 ACP . For Europe they have to be proofed to 33kpsi for that . I don't remember now but I was surprised to find that 38 Special is rated at only 14 kpsi with Colts and that +p 38s are only 16,000 . The reason that I surprised me is that 45-70 is rated at 22,000 for Trapdoor . 8-8.5 Unique is a pretty sedate load , at last review after suggesting to an associate that 9 gr was pretty hot in an 1858 conversion cyl I checked a couple of books . New data takes Unique to 9.5 gr for STD Colts . I wouldn't with my 1968 lot as it is driving a 250 in an ACP 900+ fps in a 5.5" revolver on 5.5 gr . I've often heard "no it's not " but 3 Chrony s can only tell the same lie in polyticks . On 9.5 gr in the 7.5" Colts the 250s do 1050 fps and that's all the faster I want to go .

 

[DHD]

<----BIG believer in Bisley grip for hard-kicking S/A calibers, or even the gentler rounds. Google-fu on "Huntington grip mod" as above will occur shortly.

Brass life......Federal brass and ammo has always been a tough find hereabouts. other than "American Eagle" ammo and 12/20 gauge dove loads. (4 more shopping days 'til Dove Opener on Tuesday. "Dove Opener" is ALWAYS capitalized, just so ya know). The only Federal brass I've had much use of was in 308, the empties from my worksite bolt rifles that started life as 168 grain Matchking/GM Match. It was easier to run through F/L size dies than W-W, and a lot easier than LC mil-spec, fired from same chambers. The FC held up OK in bolt rifles and the M1A, but the HK-91 tore it up even worse than it did W-W and LC brass. The port buffer didn't help a bit with the rim disfigurement, either. I didn't run hot loads, either--150 J-words atop 47.0 grains of WW-748, and 45.5 grains of same fuel matched the GMM loads with the 168 Matchkings. Primer pockets did fine (WLR caps) for 6-8 loadings.

JRH does the grip mod on both the standard plowhandle and the Bisley. Mine were the plowhandle and it made a beast a beauty. In particular the Beast is a 4 5/8" SS Super and with a 44 Magnum with heavy bullets would get to be a handful. After the mod it hasn't drawn blood and is one of the better feeling single actions I own and it looks like a supermodel. Jack put some of what he described as exhibition walnut on the gripframe and it looks glorious. I guess a way of describing the mod on a plowhandle would be a longer grip, Bisley front strap, plowhandle back strap, more room behind the triggerguard, and some finely fitted gorgeous wood.

He also changes the grip on Bisley's and you can find pics of those on the web. A big change there is more room behind the triggerguard. Others have mentioned getting rapped on the finger joint by a hard kicking Bisley and I've felt it myself. My fix was getting custom grips fitted, but more room would be nice.

In truth I've relegated my Ruger's to below maximum loads as I have FA83's in the 3 calibers I want screaming loads in. That grip style handles stout recoil like a champ.

 

[CZ93X62]

My non-Bisley S/A Rugers aren't hard-kickers (30 Carbine and 22 LR/Mag SS), so Pachmayr Presentation grip sets handle the grip expansion/lengthening matter adequately. Plow-handle grips are just too small for me, like Magna stocks on S&Ws. I just prefer the Bisley grip form.

 

[DHD]

My non-Bisley S/A Rugers aren't hard-kickers (30 Carbine and 22 LR/Mag SS), so Pachmayr Presentation grip sets handle the grip expansion/lengthening matter adequately. Plow-handle grips are just too small for me, like Magna stocks on S&Ws. I just prefer the Bisley grip form.

I understand completely about the plowhandle. I haven't been playing with the single actions for as long as most here, but my hands told me what they liked and the recoil handling of a standard BH reinforced what my hands said. I only own 2 standard BH's and they've both been modified and the rest of the RBH herd are Bisley's.

What works for the individual is what they should use. All the talk of heavy loads in 45 Colt and/or 44 Magnum's is good fun. I like powerful and accurate revolvers just like I like powerful vehicles. Just because my truck has 400+ horsepower definitely does not mean I'll be using that horsepower every time I get in it. Ahhh, but that power is there and available.

I've rambled enough...

 

[CZ93X62]

I ramble ALL THE TIME. Some days, it's the only exercise I get.

The late Frank Barnes wrote something once (in his Cartridges of the World) that rattles around in my head when I think about the 45 Colt and the hyphenated WCF calibers like 44/40 and 32/20. "Some calibers made the transition from black powder to smokeless powders more seamlessly than others did." The BP 45 Colt was NO JOKE--from the 7.5" SAA barrel it gave 1000 FPS to a 255 grain bullet using The Holy Black; using most smokeless fuels in a Colt-pattern S/A, 900 FPS is about as hard as you want to run it. That is still a very serious nonsense-stopper, for sure--but the idea of giving away 10% of a caliber's performance potential never sits well with me. In the Ruger wheelguns, that 255/1000 FPS equation is quite safe to run and gives a large margin of safety given their robust constriction. Using such loads, I can't see anyone ever wearing out a Ruger BH.

900-1000 FPS seems to have become a velocity "sweet spot" for the Jello-Shooter Cadre at FBI Labs and other prediction mills of terminal ballistic gospel. Regardless of caliber or bullet weight, recoil levels from such loads can be managed by most users--32/20 WCF to 45 ACP or Colt. Report volume isn't egregious, and spent bullets are easily contained--think "indoor shooting range" in this context. These velocities do not prompt over-penetration in animated targets or backgrounds. Controlled-expansion bullet designs are not complex to make. These loads do not shoot "flat" at some hunting distances, but the loads do a lot of things very darn well, especially for less-seasoned users.

 

[Creeker]

Nothing wrong with the 45. I shoot it but I'm a 44 guy at heart.

 

[358156 hp]

I did a stint with heavy loads in one of the first 7-1/2 in. 45 Colt Redhawks made. I also had an identical Redhawk in 44 Mag at the time as well, plus a 5-1/2 in 41 Mag Redhawk. I was hitting a level with the 45 Colt that I didn't believe I could match with the 44 Mag, my real limitation was the bullet moulds available in comparable weights at the time.

I got a bit nervous when I discovered that my 45 Colt velocities were in the load ranges of the custom five-shot guns, and I backed off fast & hard, around 1350+ with Lymans 452651 bullet (going by memory). The real issue came to light one day when I realized that I had never weighed my bullets for the 45, and I found that instead of weighing 325 gr, my bullets were 340+ grains. Apparently I had a mould that was cut for lino, and I was feeding it wheelweight bullets instead. Anyway, the Redhawk was unfazed by the ordeal, but was no fun to shoot like a normal, sane human, and I traded it off after it sat in my safe for a year or better. The guy who bought it still raves at its accuracy. I've tried to buy it back numerous times, but to no avail.

This left the 44 mag gun to do most of the work, hamstrung in my eyes by the difficulties I had finding proper moulds for it that weighed over 300 gr. Veral was still a guest at Club Fed at the time, and the only other real source was NEI, but I was resistant about them in those days, probably because Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton hadn't blessed them yet. I now have moulds for this weight class, including the NEI/SSK design, and Lymans 429649 (which requires lapping before use). There are others, but the moment is passed. Now the 44 mag gets MP Keith design, or LBTs 280 gr LFN.

 

[Dale53]

I have a Smith Model 29 (.44 Magnum) with 8 3/8” barrel and a two power Burris “Big Dot” scope. It is flat out a hunting tool. It will handle all the big game anyone can ask for in a handgun. I have taken several deer with it. I have other .44 Magnums, too.

I also have several .45 Colt handguns. My SS Bisley .45 ACP/ .45 Colt Convertible is an exemplary revolver for big game also. My choice with it for big game would be a Tier II load with the RCBS 270SAA (285 grs. In my alloy). This would be at least as good as the .44 Mag Loads.

I consider them more or less equal on the power scale (in real world hunting fields).

Since I am now old and feeble, my Convertible is limited to the range. On the range, the .45 ACP cylinder with target loads is a fun shoot. It also would be a superb small game load.

FWIW
Dale53

 

[RBHarter]

Because nobody told me not too .

 

[flint4570]

I shoot hot but not to hot loads because my .45 colt shoots better like that then my .44 mags . about 1250 fps for 260 grain and 1075 fps for 300 grain bullets. No signs of exessive pressure. oh yea 51\2 inch barrel and powder is H110 .

 

[Charles Graff]

If you shoot enough heavy recoil handguns loads and live long enough you will come to know why it is stupid to shoot loads big boomer loads when you don't need to. The arthritis in your hand and the wonky tendons in your elbow will be your teacher. You can try and tell the children, but they won't believe you on this either.

 

[JWFilips]

Well I'm not up in the 40 caliber Plus land like the OP wrote but I do know 10 years ago I got in to shooting S&W 357 Mag pistols. I have a 19-3 and a old Pre-27; At that time the gang I shot with had "magnumitis" Not being a real pistol shooter ( always preferred rifles) I just went along with the crowd and loaded like they loaded Ended up with a whole lot of 125 grain TC bullets ahead of 17.0 Grains 2400 ( which is a stout load) and Fed mag primers. I have about 10-50 round boxes of ammo I loaded like this! Now 10 years later I do not enjoy shooting this load even in my L frame! Sure would like to recover my brass ( new ) 0 x shot Starline! I have been shooting 12 or so every range trip because I do not want to try to pull these bullets.
Not to mention they are commercial hard cast bore sized bullets that are crap by my casting standards now that I know what I'm doing!

So now I'm using light wad cutter loads ( want to try "Low Node" in pistols) Loading the wad cutters deep in the 357 case to 38 Special; Specs for loads and COL and using a Redding taper crimp die to hold them down in there.
My buddy Ed has been doing this for awhile and his groups are really good and a very enjoyable load to shoot....Me however I got to get my pistol shooting confidence back! Haven't shot pistol in 10 years ( except to take the wife out to the range once in awhile to shoot her 38 S&W)
Found out 10 years makes a big difference! Never used to shake much back then....now my hands shaking is a major issue.... but over the past 4 range trips Ed said I'm improving! Getting some confidence back getting some small ragged hole areas in my targets at 25 yards so I'm seeing some hold consistency!
Then today he really thru me a curve! He load his 357 Mag brass to "38 S&W" specs and COL with HBWC's! Damn that load was impressive at 25 yards....Little Recoil and very quiet! Shot in his Smith 19

 

[JWFilips]

As to spitting cases: I never load cases more then 6 times ( Pistol or rifle with out annealing) Because I only Neck Size my rifles I know a few calibers can be shot a bit more Maybe 8 or 10 x before annealing but revolver cases that get roll crimp 6 X is max