750 Yard .308 Win

[Ian]

It's a lot of fun, definitely a different category from what you've already mastered, and definitely will be a challenge. I don't shoot at very long ranges with metallic loads but long enough to say that anything past about 1800 fps requires a lot more things to be "right" if you expect your group dispersion to be predictably linear with distance. What shoots great at 100 often becomes "where'd WHO go?" at 300.

I think you just need to jump in with both feet and start experimenting for yourself. Most people give up too easily, or try too hard using the methods that just will never work, or don't have the mindset needed to visualize and work through the challenges of higher-velocity, cartridge cast bullet shooting. You seem to have good problem-solving skills and the attitude for success.

Had you thought about trying to paper-patch for your .308? That is kind of an "easy button" to high-velocity accuracy with cast bullets in fixed ammunition. I wrote a brief article on it which can be found in the Tips & Tricks read-only section of the forum. I also have a couple of proven PP. 30 caliber mould designs in Tom's catalog. You may also be interested in reading my other "Basement Articles" in the read-only section. Some of tjem are outdaded and kind of embarrassing for me to read now, but you may pick up some useful knowledge there that you hadn't considered before.

 

[Idaholewis]

It's a lot of fun, definitely a different category from what you've already mastered, and definitely will be a challenge. I don't shoot at very long ranges with metallic loads but long enough to say that anything past about 1800 fps requires a lot more things to be "right" if you expect your group dispersion to be predictably linear with distance. What shoots great at 100 often becomes "where'd WHO go?" at 300.

I think you just need to jump in with both feet and start experimenting for yourself. Most people give up too easily, or try too hard using the methods that just will never work, or don't have the mindset needed to visualize and work through the challenges of higher-velocity, cartridge cast bullet shooting. You seem to have good problem-solving skills and the attitude for success.

Had you thought about trying to paper-patch for your .308? That is kind of an "easy button" to high-velocity accuracy with cast bullets in fixed ammunition. I wrote a brief article on it which can be found in the Tips & Tricks read-only section of the forum. I also have a couple of proven PP. 30 caliber mould designs in Tom's catalog. You may also be interested in reading my other "Basement Articles" in the read-only section. Some of tjem are outdaded and kind of embarrassing for me to read now, but you may pick up some useful knowledge there that you hadn't considered before.

I’m enjoying the HECK out of everything on here! The Paper Patching for .308 is VERY interesting to me, I have a WHOLE Tutorial on it for Muzzleloader, it is where i started in the Hobby, I have done a TON of PP for Muzzleloader. But that’s obviously a VERY Different Game, I am Patching to Bore Diameter for them, actually better to be Just Slightly under bore by .001, A very Common Bore Diameter in say .50 Cal is .501, I Patch to .499-.500, Soft lead, up to 1-20 Alloy is the Ticket for “Bump up” My .50 Cal PP Bullets are .492 Diameter from the Mold, I use 9# Onion Skin Paper, 2 Wraps

 

[Ian]

PP is the opposite for smokeless. .001-2" OVER bore diameter, patch to fill the throat. Use tougher alloy like straight wheelweights. You don't want the bullet to bump at all because there isn't enough support in the case neck or transition from case to throat to keep it from turning into a mangled mess. Slicks don't work well with smokeless, shallow displacement grooves are essential, as is wet-patching the paper so it shrinks to fit and grab the bullet grooves.

I'm not trying to talk you into trying PP for your .308 first, but if it turns out you need the maximum velocity you can get from your .308 for long range shooting, it's a really good way to get there and is less persnickety than traditional greased cast bullets.

Powder coating is another way to get to copper-jacketed velocity with accuracy. You may not need or want to go that fast and more traditional, easier to master loading techniques straight from the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook may serve you just fine, just remember that Lyman won't get you past a certain point with any hope of accuracy.

 

[fiver]

not with their molds for sure.

a lot of us would rather not work with aluminum molds and would for sure appreciate a 75$ 4 cavity [hell a 1 cavity] mehanite or Brass mold with measurements and shapes of our choosing.
that's just not gonna happen.
one of the biggest hurdles we have is actually mold acquisition.
there is a lot of apathy out there concerning shooting lead fast, not only from other lead shooters, but from the mold makers and even as much or more from others that are doing it too.

as far as alloy.
the #2 will work fine and depending on which mold you choose it can be cut 50-50 with pure.

yep which mold.
some of the more fluid designs like a softer alloy that is manipulated by heat treating and being pushed by slower powders.
the other type appears to like a strengthened alloy and will do fine with powders/pressures a little faster.

the rest of figuring things out basically comes down to jump to the lands, neck tension, ignition,, type stuff.

 

[L Ross]

not with their molds for sure.

a lot of us would rather not work with aluminum molds and would for sure appreciate a 75$ 4 cavity [hell a 1 cavity] mehanite or Brass mold with measurements and shapes of our choosing.
that's just not gonna happen.
one of the biggest hurdles we have is actually mold acquisition.
there is a lot of apathy out there concerning shooting lead fast, not only from other lead shooters, but from the mold makers and even as much or more from others that are doing it too.

as far as alloy.
the #2 will work fine and depending on which mold you choose it can be cut 50-50 with pure.

yep which mold.
some of the more fluid designs like a softer alloy that is manipulated by heat treating and being pushed by slower powders.
the other type appears to like a strengthened alloy and will do fine with powders/pressures a little faster.

the rest of figuring things out basically comes down to jump to the lands, neck tension, ignition,, type stuff.

Apathy! Wow, guilty as charged. I just went to the other site where I've forgotten my password and read all 37 pages on the XCB thread. I got intrigued as to why two prominent members sold off their XCB rifles. Anyway, Waco's 500 yd. 2 MOA shooting has really peaked my interest. I can finagle close to 500 on my property and I'm gonna give it a go. My favorite cast bullet rifle shooting involves getting Lee 312-155-2R and 30 XCB bullets to shoot into 3" pretty reliably at 200 from a rest, then loading up a bunch of that ammo to shoot off hand at knock down steel targets. My targets are mild steel and velocities over 1,700 or so cause dimples I don't like. Picked up a double set of AR-500 gongs and can do some higher velocity experimenting now.

 

[fiver]

it wasn't because the rifles didn't shoot or work as intended.
it was because of the grief the whole project caused when one of the participants turned it into a self aggrandizing scheme to further their Agenda.

I'm sure you seen the thread I started here.
that was the first time mine was drug out and used for it's intended purpose, all of those loads and groups were nothing more than to push the envelope as far as possible and see if 2" groups could be kept at and above normal jacketed speeds with a 10 twist barrel.
it was, and they were, and the rifle got put back in the closet again.

 

[Brad]

My xcb rifle shot just fine. I decided I no longer wanted it or the baggage it represented.

 

[Rick]

it wasn't because the rifles didn't shoot or work as intended.
it was because of the grief the whole project caused when one of the participants turned it into a self aggrandizing scheme to further their Agenda.

I'm sure you seen the thread I started here.
that was the first time mine was drug out and used for it's intended purpose, all of those loads and groups were nothing more than to push the envelope as far as possible and see if 2" groups could be kept at and above normal jacketed speeds with a 10 twist barrel.
it was, and they were, and the rifle got put back in the closet again.

Very diplomatic . . . Thank you!

 

[Ian]

That and making brass is a pita royale.

I still have mine (production #1) and the last groups shot with it were posted on another board a long, long time ago. Since then I've learned you don't need a precision bench rifle with a slow twist and the capability to fit ammunition to it withclearances in the low end of the fourth decimal place to shoot sub-moa at high velocity. Damned thing is tying ip one of my best target scopes, so until I get a custom reamer ground and punchit out to a full .30-'06 I might just jerk it off of there and out it on something I actually shoot.

 

[fiver]

you know what makes good XCB brass?
275 rigby.... neck it up and fire form.

 

[CZ93X62]

This has been a fascinating read. Thank you for its text & content.

I have shot a whole lot of 308 Winchester, most of it from rifles very much like that of the O/P. Every last round fired was jacketed-bullet-loaded, many of those Sierra 168 MKHPs. I took one deer with a 165 Game King from a 700 BDL x 22". Most of the shots taken with the 168 MKHP were from 100-300 yards, about 20% from 400 to 600 yards--and no further. Those MKs would stay with the program all the way to 600 yards without problems.
My last 308 rifle left the house about 20 years ago. For my uses, the 30-06 is better and just as accurate. A couple times a year I conjure up the thought to build another target 308 bolter, but it has been over five years since I have had regular access to a decent range site. Until that condition changes, there will be no new calibers arriving here.

 

[waco]

I have been wanting to try some of the Hornady ELD-M Bullets or the new A-Tips in my .308
That won’t be happening until I get through this box of tipped SMK 175gr.

 

[L Ross]

it wasn't because the rifles didn't shoot or work as intended.
it was because of the grief the whole project caused when one of the participants turned it into a self aggrandizing scheme to further their Agenda.

I'm sure you seen the thread I started here.
that was the first time mine was drug out and used for it's intended purpose, all of those loads and groups were nothing more than to push the envelope as far as possible and see if 2" groups could be kept at and above normal jacketed speeds with a 10 twist barrel.
it was, and they were, and the rifle got put back in the closet again.

I tried the search feature several ways and didn't find what I was looking for. I sure don't want to aggravate a bad situation, just trying to take advantage of a lot of hard work people did. I'll try to search under your former posts, thanks.

 

[L Ross]

My xcb rifle shot just fine. I decided I no longer wanted it or the baggage it represented.

What a shame, sorry.

 

[L Ross]

That and making brass is a pita royale.

I still have mine (production #1) and the last groups shot with it were posted on another board a long, long time ago. Since then I've learned you don't need a precision bench rifle with a slow twist and the capability to fit ammunition to it with clearances in the low end of the fourth decimal place to shoot sub-moa at high velocity. Damned thing is tying ip one of my best target scopes, so until I get a custom reamer ground and punchit out to a full .30-'06 I might just jerk it off of there and out it on something I actually shoot.

I am glad to hear that as I picked up a couple of 700's in .308 with Varmint barrels. One is in a 40X stock and the other in in a wooden police take off. They now have good triggers and have been lightly prepped by a knowledgeable gun smith. I got these because I wanted to shoot cast with scoped rifles other than a Springfield sporter and iron sighted Springfields and lever guns.
These rifles are a lot of fun plinking steel offhand and they do group close to MOA with cast Lee SKS bullets and XCB's. I do use RCBS GM X full length dies with a bushing sized to only give enough neck tension to make the ammo secure but not swedge down the bullets. Alloy? Well, I'm kinda casual about that. Usually ACWW with a little tin. I did make up a batch of XCB's with 10# of WW and 4# of lino to shoot through an AR with a 7.62x39 upper. I sized some of those to .311" and tried them in the .308's, good results, but not appreciably better than the Lee 312-155-2Rs.
So hearing that 10 twist barrels can shoot higher velocity is good news to me. I will study your and Waco's work and follow your advice. I never cared for water quenching, but understand the rationale as the higher velocities and pressure and will adopt that and your alloys. I have a 44 year supply of any kind of lead I could scrounge, a lot.

 

[fiver]

it's not that big of a deal.
anyway we can help we will.
your rifle sounds like it is fully capable of doing the job, and you have much of the information already.

when you find that XCB thread I also run my 308 right next to it so you'll need to sort through the info carefully because there is data for both cartridges in there.
the XCB is kind of like a 308 that has been Ackley improved in case volume, but has a lot more slope to the shoulder so the efficiency with the slower powders isn't exactly the same.

 

[RBHarter]

It's actually a lot closer to an 06' pushed back to x57 .

 

[fiver]

it's exactly that.
the size die is a 30-06 die with about 1/4" cut off.

the case volume is what I was explaining, and it attributes as far as influencing powder burn.

 

[Ian]

@L Ross , here's the thread Fiver was referring with the .308 and XCB data.

Range Report

Just a little info on

artfulbullet.com

 

[Will]

This might shed some light on the subject. This was my first go at shooting HV in the 308.

https://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/my-try-at-hv-cast.3546/