Advice wanted on the .35 Whelen

[Spindrift]

I have decided I need a .35 whelen barrel for my Rem 700 switch barrel
I have ordered a few Lee moulds (to begin with; c358-200, 358-158-RF (like the looks), and 358-140-SWC (just curious)). I’m planning to get the MP 220 grs bullet. And maybe a 270grs something from accurate in the future, to make it a proper «weapon of moose destruction»

What I’m pondering, is what rate of twist to choose. The barrel will be made from scratch by my gunsmith. I’m leaning towards 1:14, but I’m on a little thin ice, here. Do you have any thoughts?

 

[RBHarter]

The 1-14 was good on the 358 . Shot 5 shots under a Quarter if I could keep the checks on (Operator error) with the 35-250 at 2100 with I4350 . I have that behemoth 300 gr RN around here somewhere too but never tried it . The above load data is out in the weeds non approved data and likely asking for trouble .

 

[Outpost75]

1:14 will stabilize 300-grain cast subsonic with 11 grains of Herco if shaped similar to Accurate 36-302G and not over 1.20" long.

For full charge load 60 grains of IMR4350 for 2200 fps from 24" barrel.

 

[RicinYakima]

My JES rebored Springfield barrel in 1/16 (three equal grooves), will shoot the Lyman 3589, 295 grains in WW's, just fine a 100 yards. Don't know about sub-sonic as my load is 24 grains of SR4759 and 1450 f/s.

 

[Ian]

You'll like that MP 220. I have the original BRP version and it's a shooter.

I'm interested in what sort of experience a moose hunt would be in your area. Hunting from a platform or blind? Stalking? What distances do you expect to make shots? Is bullet mass more importand than ballistic coefficient and velocity?

It would be most fulfilling to take big game with a cast bullet, staying tuned to this project for sure.

 

[fiver]

I have a 1-12 in my 358 win it's never slowed me down nor sped me up in any way.
I'd most likely no I would shoot a moose with my current load of a 250gr cast bullet at a bit over 2300...
probably I gotta play with everything, it works on deer just fine as is though..

 

[Spindrift]

Thank you all, for your thoughts!
The scandinavian moose is smaller than its north american counterpart. About the same size as your elk (sidenote; the norwegian word for moose is «elg»). We hunt mostly in woodlands, Typical shooting distance is 50 yards, 100y shots are less common and 200y+ shots are out of the question. We hunt from stands (or more typically, sitting on a rock ), while our dog (and his owner) does most of the hard work.

Under these circumstances, ballistic coefficient does not matter. Ranges are short, and the target is huge. The challenge, is making the correct decision quickly. You typically have a couple of seconds to decide if it is the correct kind of animal, if the shooting angle is acceptable, trajectory free of vegetation and then shoot.

The elk hound does not bay until it makes direct contact with the animal. Sometimes, the animal moves. But the moose tends to stand their ground when confronted by the dogs. The dog barks, distracts the animal and help us localize it. The hunter sitting nearest can then stalk the animal. We communicate by radio.

What I’m looking for in a moose bullet is mass, penetration, controlled expansion and integrity to avoid disintegration when hitting large bones. I’m thinking the 220grs bullet might be on the light side, something 250grs+ might be better.

We have legislation concerning bullet weights and energy. For 155grs+ bullets, we need 1622+ foot pounds at 100m. Shouldn’t be a problem with the Whelen

 

[Ian]

That paints a pretty clear picture of the setting, thank you for the education. Sounds like not only do you need a rifle that hits hard, but one which also fits you perfectly so you can mount, point, fire, and hit what you were looking at without really having to think about the aiming part.

 

[Spindrift]

That’s right! This kind of hunting does not involve long treks, so a little weight to the rifle does no harm. The GRS Berserk stock fits me very well, and the extra bit of weight it brings to the rifle is no problem (hunting caribou in the highlands; now, that is a different situation).

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I have all these twists and shoot all. Havent seen problems with any of the three common. But if I was choosin I agree 1:14 is a good choice.
My 358NM is a Jes rebore. I ah e shot 158-280 with good accuracy. I havent checked it. I had a 358 -:14 and a Whelen 1:12 and currently a 1:16. It shoots 358009 Lymans perfectly!


cW

 

[RBHarter]

I think that's the heavy mould I have .
I'll run some numbers through Strelok if you'd like for a 1500 ftlb window if I can find BC numbers for a couple of bullets .
I lived in an area that requires 1000# at 1000 for big game which was 100# Pronghorn Antelope through 800# elk . A .300 BC needs 1900 fps to make it , just as a guide .

 

[fiver]

the 009 is a classic, it just doesn't have that flatter nose a hunting bullet seems to do better with.
I remember someone drawing up the 009 with a hunter shape nose but I don't remember if it was NOE or LEE that cut it.
of course it wouldn't be hard to get Tom to make one with just enough nose shape to feed well and still have a 60-65% meplat.
or just suck it up and buy some 225gr Noslers, or Norma's.

 

[Ian]

Spindrift, can you get a reamer print from your gunsmith, or will you have to just cast an impression of what he makes you?

Remember this thread? https://www.artfulbullet.com/index.php?threads/accurate-36-270-questions.5374/page-2 You can make a dimensional drawing for Tom at Accurate and the universal, self-aligning nose I outlined can be added to the body portion of any of his cataloged designs for convenience and dimensional reference. What I typically do is print out some of his prints and use scissors to cut/paste what I want or draw the nose how I want, then translate it to a dimensional drawing on paper and email it to Tom with a description of what I did and what I'm looking to do with the bullet. He will put it together in a new design with weight and and discuss any details with you. You can design any sort of meplat you want for it for hunting.

 

[Spindrift]

Thanks, guys!
Ian, I remember the thread you link to. The universal, self-aligning nose is a concept I think is very good. Getting a mould cut with this kind of nose, at around 270grs, with a wide meplat, is what I’m planning. But I’ll start by shooting the «of the shelf»- moulds I’ve ordered, and maybe do a pound cast (finally!) before anything else. It would also be interesting to do an expansion/penetration test of the MP 360-220, it might be sufficient. And even a moose can only die once, right?

By the way, 20% discount at MP-molds these days

As Fiver indicates, there is of course many good factory .358 hunting bullets. A Barnes ttsx 180-200grs bullet would get the necessary velocity for proper expansion, offering tremendous large game capacity with 30-06 recoil.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

I also prefer a fp as a hunting bullet. But one does not argue with success and repeated compounded thru tge years its reputation now preceeds it this Lyman 358009 is a good killer.

its not without challenges tho.... As a bore rider its NOT powder coat friendly. So I bought a Accurate 36/270c Its a ranch-dog inspired design and should be a very good killer. I have now shot these from a 357 Maxi to my bug Norma Magnum. The Whelen hasnt seen them yet. But my 356 and 358 NM shoot them real well under 2000 fps so far. I havent cast it super hard. 15-18 BHN has been target. One batch was closer to 12-13 and those are reserved for trail boss and sub sonic play.


Here is one next to a RCBS 358-200.
Another mold I reciently bought is a NOE 360-232. It is also a Ranch Dog bullet with a larger meplat than the 270 while still being powder coat friendly.


Last week I received a loaner mold. Its a LBT 220! Its a RD looking bullet but carries a bit extra girth into the chamber so I need to experiment to see if its a good choice in shorter throated rifle chambers. I know my one Maxi will shoot it! But Im hoping my 356 & 358 will. I already know none of my 35remingtons will chamber it.



CW

 

[Spindrift]

Nice photos and bullets, CW! That accurate bullet sure has authority.
That is one of the fine things with the .358 caliber. There are so many good mould- and bullet options!
What won me over to the whelen, is the fact that my local ranges are full of Norma 30-06 brass, once fired. And I like the long neck, good to have them lube grooves tucked safely inside the neck for field use. The rifle is also a long action, and I always prefer a cartridge that takes advantage of the length of the action.

I use both conventional lube, and powder coat. Powder coat is a very nice tool to have in the box, that makes remarkable things pretty straight forward with cast bullets. But most of my cast bullet shooting is still with lubed bullets. I just like the process, I guess. I even like pan lubing. Maybe all those fumes while cooking lube did something to my brain

 

[Bret4207]

My 35 Whelen is a re-bored 03-A3 Springfield. I believe it has a 1/14 twist. It seems to shoot everything cast from 150-275 grs with about the same nice results. It's an incredibly cast friendly cartridge in me experience. And anything I've ever hit with it has been pretty much dead within 50 feet, not yards, feet!

 

[fiver]

I was gonna say earlier that's a great looking dog.
intelligent and probably a bit spoiled.

 

[Spindrift]

Thank you, fiver! I’m not the owner, one of the other guys in our hunting group. That is a norwegian grey elkhound. They are independent, smart dogs with opinions. They typically work as I described, running loose. They use all their senses to localize the animal; trail, scent, sound and even vision.

We have another breed of elk hound, the black. It is slightly smaller. Lithe, agile dogs. They are typically used, held on a leash while they lead the hunter to the prey. They move silent like cats, very balanced minds; they must keep absolutely quiet even within close range of the animal. Another guy in our group has one, I couldn’t find a picture that does the dog justice; it is a beautiful dog

 

[fiver]

that black one looks a lot like the shepherd/heeler lab crosses we have in this area.