Anybody ever hear of this critter.

[CZ93X62]

Don, I'm not sure there is a clear consensus about even THAT. When you look at the 45 caliber Keith SWCs (#452423 and #454424) both offer a pretty healthy crimp groove for those so inclined. Then #454190 has NO crimp groove, and Lyman's doctrine with these old BP designs is to seat the base on a dense column of BP and tie things down with a roll crimp over the ogive. #311008, #401043, and #427098 follow suit. Not a lot of rhyme or reason to it.

I come at the crimping question from whatever direction the cartridge and its arm need it to. It is not a "one-size-fits-all" subject.

 

[Charles Graff]

Ah, crimping. Lots of ways to do that.

CW has a point, that is my goal with autopistol ammo--straighten out the mouth flare AND NO FURTHER. Revolver ammo benefits from a roll crimp, though that can be overdone. This could explode into a thread all its own, and that is not my goal--but the subject is easily misunderstood, and peoples' experiences vary. Now, ya want MADNESS........25/20, 32/20, 38/40, 44/40--there be MADNESS.

Factory 45 ACP ammo does not have a straight case, but a slight taper crimp. Just saying.

 

[CZ93X62]

Yessir, I agree. For my purposes--making ammo that runs well in my pistols--removing the case mouth flare completely serves my needs.

 

[Charles Graff]

Yessir, I agree. For my purposes--making ammo that runs well in my pistols--removing the case mouth flare completely serves my needs.

If if works, it works! Me, I use a factory round (45 ACP) to adjust a taper crimp die and go from there. This too completely serves my needs. I am not an evangelist for crimping.

 

[462]

I followed Pistolero/Mtgun44/Bill's advise and changed my .45 ACP crimp from .472 to .469-.470. No measurable cast bullet swaging resulted, but it eliminated the once in a while 452460 feeding hiccup. Figured if it worked for him while competing, it'd work for me while plinking.

 

[Ian]

I followed Pistolero/Mtgun44/Bill's advise and changed my .45 ACP crimp from .472 to .469-.470. No measurable cast bullet swaging resulted, but it eliminated the once in a while 452460 feeding hiccup. Figured if it worked for him while competing, it'd work for me while plinking.

I tried that too and was crushing bullets down to .448"x .450". After much discussion, doubt, and finally a fact and data chasing expedition on both ends, it turns out it was the profile of the Redding TC die I had bought on his general advice to apply an aggressive taper crimp. Bill bought and sent me a new Lee taper crimp die gratis to support his argument and he was spot on, that die has the correct taper and works great. I don't do .465-6" on the SWCs like he does for maximum reliability in the shooting games, but .468" feeds more smoothly than .472". I used to roll crimp to about .468" too.

 

[fiver]

speaking of the 454424 I have seen data for it when it is seated flush like a SWC.
I wondered about it, and then seen why, when I tried running them in my lever rifles.
they are too long even with that stubby nose, and the slight modification I made to the rifle to take over saami length ammo.
the taper crimp die was a godsend when I seen it in my pile of 'I might need this someday' stuff.

 

[CWLONGSHOT]

Thats odd, My Marlins eat up My 424454 cast they are not at all as finicky as my 357's!! Two of mine are bone stock factory guns. That mold is a long time favorite.


I have hopes for the nee to me RCBS 270 saa!

CW

 

[RBHarter]

The M92's run the older round groove Lyman and the BP compatible NOE version of the 424 fine .

 

[fiver]

none of mine will run the square groove 424 in the crimp groove.
not a big deal to me since they all [including the model 94 I had] run the 664 like goose poop.

my 92 in 44 mag. will run the 429421,,, 241, whatever, just fine, with the same modification to the 44 mag rifle.
I can't get it to run in the B-92 at all, because of the nose length, and the model 94 is a maybe sorta on operation but the diameter is too small for the barrel anyway sooo[shrug] it get's a pass.
I just run swaged jacketed in those 2, and bump swaged [to 430] cast bullets in the 44-40.

 

[CZ93X62]

My Miroku 92 x 44 Mag will digest Lyman #429244 just fine, but #429421 is a no-go. Like Fiver mentioned, OAL when crimped properly is too long, and the front drive band is too fat/throat too short. I have an Accurate Molds 250 grain round flatnose GC that shoot wonderfully and cycles smoothly, and gets 1800 FPS atop 25.0 grains of WW-296. Yes, it pushes back some.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

I have seen some horrible messes made by screwing the taper crimp die as if were a FL die. I have several flavors of taper crimp dies used most on 45 ACP and 38 Special. I screw there taper crimp die into the press. The die is set by feel. If the bullet is smushed it has to do with my heavy hand. This works for the dies I have.

Added: I have a friend who will buy anything that was a bargain. In this instance it was two sets of NOS RCBS custom dies. One set was so obscure that the instructions were handwritten. From this experience I would accept anything RCBS with odd marking is what it is . In the day the company would make you a die until you ran out of money. This idea of marking came when I got a set of RCBS small bsse dies for 300 Savage. These dies were in a large buy from a dealer.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

Added: This happened after my last post. This is not about RCBS but Lyman. I had set up a Dillon tool head with Lyman dies for 45 Colt. I had put the Lyman taper crimping die in tool head. It was marked for 45 ACP and 45 Colt. I supposed that means that a die for 45 ACP can be used for a 45 Colt. I wonder if this 45 Colt taper crimp die would allow me to use 45 ACP bullets in my 45 Colt revolver without drama. The ACP bullets would lack a crimping groove.

 

[fiver]

taper crimping does allow that.
I use a lyman 200gr SWC in my 45 colt lever rifles, it's meant for the ACP and I use a taper crimp to hold everything together.
I also use a 230gr XTP meant for the ACP in the lever guns, but I put my own cannelure on those and roll crimp so I can push them hard enough to deer hunt with.
I was just taper crimping them before I started using the slower powders.

 

[BudHyett]

Guy advertised a used RCBS .45 Colt taper crimp die. I bought it and just received it, and sure enough, that is exactly what it is. I can find nothing on the internet about this die. Anybody heard of it?

Don

I have one from three decades ago; use it on .45 Colt, .45 ACP and .45-70.

 

[fiver]

the 45 win mag taper die works real nice too.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

I loaded a few round of 38 Special using a Redding profile crimp die. The bullets was the Lyman 358311 RN n an ancient four cavity mold. The profile dies makes a shallow crimp with a profile portion below the folded part. Worked very well for these target loads. It was possible to see how one could make the mother of all messes screwing that die in too deeply. I left the die in the 550 tool head.

Added: I have a twenty year old Lyman set for 45 Colt. There in is a taper crimp die for 45 ACP and 45 Colt included. That is for for mainly ironing out any roll crimping problems from the bullet seating die. This die is set by feel. Too deep and disaster follows.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

Exactly what sort of loads are we talking about in 45 Colt? Some folks load Ruger level loads and the dainty crimp will not do.

 

[BudHyett]

Not knowing what I am doing for the last four decades, I've used my RCBS taper die for .45 ACP through .45-70; screwing it in and and out to achieve the degree of taper I need.

Setting headspace on the .45 ACP using the bullet touching the rifling and a roll crimp to assure even powder burn in the Bullseye competition days, this worked well. The taper crimp die was bought as an experiment and tossed in a box since it did not help. We tested these loads at fifty yards using a Ransom Rest and many shots to get a statistically reliable conclusion. The taper crimp did not help and was an unneeded extra step.

Enter the .45-70 and again wanting a slight crimp to aid uniformity in black powder burn, it was resurrected. Mostly single shots, the crimp was not needed for feeding. The Marlin 1895 with smokeless loads were roll crimped to assure they did not move in the magazine tube.

Enter the .45 Colt in revolvers and the taper crimp is used to assure the loads will easily feed and, again to assure more uniform powder burn. That big case with Unique or TiteGroup needs a little crimp to assist powder burn. This almost eliminates a few powder kernels laying in the barrel after each shot, definitely needed with Trail Boss.

 

[Ian]

Strong case tension on the bullet trumps crimp by a wide margin when it comes to giving the powder something to work against and improve consistency.

I roll-crimped cast bullets for .45 ACP for years (mostly during my IDPA days) because it fed better that way. I did not headspace on the bullet, but close. It is physically impossible to roll crimp .45 ACP to the point that it won't headspace on the case mouth due to die, brass, and chamber standards even at the extremes of production limits. 1911s often headspace off the extracter claw anyway as you may find if you do some measuring.