CWLONGSHOT
Well-Known Member
This doset add up for me either a d one of the reason I suspected "missing" other things.
143 is something like 46k. Where that 12k come from. It dosent fit the 10 or 30% amounts
Anyone have solar panels on the roof?
- Thread starter CWLONGSHOT
- Start date
143 is something like 46k. Where that 12k come from. It dosent fit the 10 or 30% amounts
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
As Ian accurately points out, it all comes down to money.
Furthermore, there is NO such thing as a generic solar panel system, something you wouldn’t know when talking to some folks that insist on lumping all systems together under the heading of “solar panels”.
There are grid-tied systems with no storage capability. There are systems that store excess power and don’t sell the surplus. There are systems you buy and own outright. There are leased system with an infinite number of leasing variables (and expenses). There are loans with an infinite number of variables. There are systems in very sunny climates and there are systems in not so sunny places. There are systems in areas with expensive electricity and ones in areas with cheaper power. There is NO universal definition of an electrical generating system based on solar power. They are ALL different.
Despite the advantages of solar power, there are often better paths to reduced power costs, at least in terms of 20–40-year payouts. Reducing your demand by using more efficient HVAC systems, more efficient refrigerators, better water heaters, more efficient lighting, etc.; will often pay off over shorter terms than large scale systems. Improved insulation will reduce heating & cooling costs significantly. There are LOTS of ways to get to where you want to be in terms of energy costs.
If I was starting from scratch, I would build a small, energy efficient home and likely incorporate solar power into the cost of the build. That’s doesn’t mean solar is the answer to an existing home. There may be “better bang for the buck” to be had on different paths.
Furthermore, there is NO such thing as a generic solar panel system, something you wouldn’t know when talking to some folks that insist on lumping all systems together under the heading of “solar panels”.
There are grid-tied systems with no storage capability. There are systems that store excess power and don’t sell the surplus. There are systems you buy and own outright. There are leased system with an infinite number of leasing variables (and expenses). There are loans with an infinite number of variables. There are systems in very sunny climates and there are systems in not so sunny places. There are systems in areas with expensive electricity and ones in areas with cheaper power. There is NO universal definition of an electrical generating system based on solar power. They are ALL different.
Despite the advantages of solar power, there are often better paths to reduced power costs, at least in terms of 20–40-year payouts. Reducing your demand by using more efficient HVAC systems, more efficient refrigerators, better water heaters, more efficient lighting, etc.; will often pay off over shorter terms than large scale systems. Improved insulation will reduce heating & cooling costs significantly. There are LOTS of ways to get to where you want to be in terms of energy costs.
If I was starting from scratch, I would build a small, energy efficient home and likely incorporate solar power into the cost of the build. That’s doesn’t mean solar is the answer to an existing home. There may be “better bang for the buck” to be had on different paths.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
You were wise to catch that. They are betting that most people will NOT look at the contract.
CWLONGSHOT
Well-Known Member
39 pages 29 of FINE PRINT! I didnt read all much was lawyer speak. Bottom like my gut was uneasy and as many of us have found... You need to trust your gut.
My wife and I had a talk aft dinner last night before I rejected the offer. And seems two A/C units are likely biggest cause of EXPENSIVE months. So OUT THEY GO!! We are gonna buy two new units. Its a start.
Again, Solar and wind are the future. Id really like to harness some of that. Bht like all things just not gonna over pay.
CW
462
California's Central Coast Amid The Insanity
Haven't checked into the why, but I find it quite interesting that only a very few of the many dozens, if not hundreds of, wind turbines that abuse the Tehachapi Mountain's landscape are ever operating. Seems wind power's only use is as a tax write-off.
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
The Columbia River Gorge has hundreds of wind turbines built within a few miles of the major hydro dams. Most of them are not running because there is not enough transmission capacity. Dams you can't just turn off and on. Here you see the wind turbines mainly running in the spring when the salmon are heading to the ocean to keep the predation down. We will see more wind turbines running later this summer until mid-winter because of the drought. People like to eat, so most of the water is going to the millions of acres of farm lands this summer.
Glaciers
Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Yeah I’m paying $0.27 cents for power with just a little over $5,000 I’m get a 35% - 40% reduction. Next year a 2 KW increase in solar panels will put me at about a 65%, maybe a bit more. The upgrade will be about $3,800.
granted I’m buying wholesale and doing all of the install myself.
if I can afford it I’ll bump it up to 3KW.
Ian if I was paying $0.11 cents, I think I would save the money and buy a couple of rifles
smokeywolf
Well-Known Member
I think we're paying somewhere between 9 and 12 cents per KW. With the cold spell we had last winter, we had a couple of electric bills that were in the $210 to $225 range. Spring and Fall it's not unusual to see a $140 electric bill. Electric CoOp here has some sort of cost sharing scheme which bumps our bill up by $20-$25 each month.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
Something people want to remember is that in many places the power company does have to pay you for the power you produce ina rid tied system- but you get paid at what it costs the power company to produce it. IOW, if you are paying 15 cents Kwh and the power co can produce power at half a cent a Kwh, you get the half cent, not the 15.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
Consumers buying electricity pay for more than just the electricity they use; they also pay for the infrastructure and maintenance needed to deliver that electricity.
When legislation forces electric companies to purchase the excess electricity produced from privately owned solar/wind/hydro, etc.; they lose more than just the sale of that electricity. They lose the money needed to create and maintain the grid that deliveries that electricity. That forces the electric company to spread the cost of delivering power to their other customers. So, it’s only fair that utilities are only required to pay for the electricity they buy and not the cost to deliver it.
Glaciers
Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Ok I'm hearing reasonable prices on electricity per KW from posters here.
Now let me clarify. I'm in Alaska. We have extreme temperature swings from summer to winter as well as the midnight sun and long dark winter days. On 2 occasions I can think of, we hit 100 degrees for a few minutes and one time in winter of 1974-75 it was 82 below zero (no wind chill) out in 12 mile village. When it snows here in Mid October it stays till late April. No freezing thawing swings, normally a warming trend in winter is when we bounce up into the "balmy teens and 20's above". The problems are fuel and electricity are expensive as well.
Now the trick to keep your insulation working all winter is to keep the moisture out of the insulation. A tight vapor barrier is a must. This is important in hot country as well. Not so much vapor but stopping heated or cooled air from transferring out of the building. You pay for that heating or cooling, why waste it.
Now I've seen what people in the lower 48 think is a tight place, but, very few have a grasp on tight.
So the solar lecture here. Solar is far cheaper now then a few years ago, subsidized or not. Not talking subsidies now. And wind is noisy, bird killing, breaking moving parts, but that's not the subject of the CW's OP.
First off I can't remember the what we were using in KW's when we first got line power in 95, but it was 7 or 9 cents. We are now paying 27 cents and it is going up with the price of oil. I won't get into the stupid unnecessary governmental policy's that are screwing yours truly and others, but to use a word "insulate" yourself from this hijacking of market principles by concentrating on your insulation and efficiency of your electric products that you use. You need to do the efficiency saving thing before laying out bucks for alternative energy.
My electric bill "back in the day" as my kids say, was about 9 cents. And our monthly winter bill was in the neighborhood of $300. Now it's about $200 at the cost of $0.27. So in the beginning of our "grid power" usage we were using about 4000 KW in the winter months. Now we might use 700 KW per month at the high end. It cost money to tighten things up but lots of ways that save you money which pay dividends to you in the end.
I know ever region is different. But what is not different is paying for heating, cooling and lighting.
So my point when you have done as much conservative measures as you can, you will save money and your comfort level will go up as well. My cabin I'm working on on a 80 degree day will stay about 60 degrees with the windows closed. My house will rise about 6 or 7 degrees during the hot days. No air conditioning. My shop is 1700 square feet and the house is 2600 square feet. Lots of winter time lighting. All LED's.
I will post some pictures later today of the cabin insulation which is finished now. A Tight vapor barrier is money saved.
Now let me clarify. I'm in Alaska. We have extreme temperature swings from summer to winter as well as the midnight sun and long dark winter days. On 2 occasions I can think of, we hit 100 degrees for a few minutes and one time in winter of 1974-75 it was 82 below zero (no wind chill) out in 12 mile village. When it snows here in Mid October it stays till late April. No freezing thawing swings, normally a warming trend in winter is when we bounce up into the "balmy teens and 20's above". The problems are fuel and electricity are expensive as well.
Now the trick to keep your insulation working all winter is to keep the moisture out of the insulation. A tight vapor barrier is a must. This is important in hot country as well. Not so much vapor but stopping heated or cooled air from transferring out of the building. You pay for that heating or cooling, why waste it.
Now I've seen what people in the lower 48 think is a tight place, but, very few have a grasp on tight.
So the solar lecture here. Solar is far cheaper now then a few years ago, subsidized or not. Not talking subsidies now. And wind is noisy, bird killing, breaking moving parts, but that's not the subject of the CW's OP.
First off I can't remember the what we were using in KW's when we first got line power in 95, but it was 7 or 9 cents. We are now paying 27 cents and it is going up with the price of oil. I won't get into the stupid unnecessary governmental policy's that are screwing yours truly and others, but to use a word "insulate" yourself from this hijacking of market principles by concentrating on your insulation and efficiency of your electric products that you use. You need to do the efficiency saving thing before laying out bucks for alternative energy.
My electric bill "back in the day" as my kids say, was about 9 cents. And our monthly winter bill was in the neighborhood of $300. Now it's about $200 at the cost of $0.27. So in the beginning of our "grid power" usage we were using about 4000 KW in the winter months. Now we might use 700 KW per month at the high end. It cost money to tighten things up but lots of ways that save you money which pay dividends to you in the end.
I know ever region is different. But what is not different is paying for heating, cooling and lighting.
So my point when you have done as much conservative measures as you can, you will save money and your comfort level will go up as well. My cabin I'm working on on a 80 degree day will stay about 60 degrees with the windows closed. My house will rise about 6 or 7 degrees during the hot days. No air conditioning. My shop is 1700 square feet and the house is 2600 square feet. Lots of winter time lighting. All LED's.
I will post some pictures later today of the cabin insulation which is finished now. A Tight vapor barrier is money saved.
Glaciers
Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Well here's some pics of the cabin insulation. So you understand what you're looking at, the ceiling is 2x10's with 2x2 nailers across which minimizes stud conduction. The walls in the addition are 2x6 with 2x2 nailers across. The foil facing reflects heat back and the taping which needs to be "tight", attention to detail here payoff.
Edit: no wires or pipes will penetrate this barrier.
The ceiling between the purlin and ridge pole, note the gap at the ridge. This will be filled with foam then caulking will be applied to finish the seal.
This pic shows from the purlin to the wall in the left of the pic. In the left lower corner some of the window foam sealant is evident.
This picture shows the addition and the nailers and foil taping are obvious. The transition to floor is caulked as well.
This shows the taping on a insulation board and the nailer. Note the fastener with a spot of tape on it. Missed a fastener, need to fix that.
Little repair of a rip from when I got careless.
Looking up the stairs into the loft you see the tight ceiling and the edges caulking. Window corner shows sealant. The problem with a timber or log building is the amount of potential leaks between logs from movement over the years. The benefit is logs are a great heat sink.
And finally the windows are foamed in between the timbers and rough in frame and window and wood frame.
The door is a salvage solid oak fire door in a jam I built and sealed like the windows. When the door is pushed closed you can feel the air pressure from closing. This place is just over 500 square feet but I'm betting it will heat for under 200 gallons a long sub Arctic winter.
Edit: no wires or pipes will penetrate this barrier.
The ceiling between the purlin and ridge pole, note the gap at the ridge. This will be filled with foam then caulking will be applied to finish the seal.
This pic shows from the purlin to the wall in the left of the pic. In the left lower corner some of the window foam sealant is evident.
This picture shows the addition and the nailers and foil taping are obvious. The transition to floor is caulked as well.
This shows the taping on a insulation board and the nailer. Note the fastener with a spot of tape on it. Missed a fastener, need to fix that.
Little repair of a rip from when I got careless.
Looking up the stairs into the loft you see the tight ceiling and the edges caulking. Window corner shows sealant. The problem with a timber or log building is the amount of potential leaks between logs from movement over the years. The benefit is logs are a great heat sink.
And finally the windows are foamed in between the timbers and rough in frame and window and wood frame.
The door is a salvage solid oak fire door in a jam I built and sealed like the windows. When the door is pushed closed you can feel the air pressure from closing. This place is just over 500 square feet but I'm betting it will heat for under 200 gallons a long sub Arctic winter.
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Winelover
North Central Arkansas
My 4000+ square foot home (walkout basement) averages over $200/ month for electricity. That's not counting leasing a 80 gallon water heater and a 24/7 security light. Now, the house is ICF (insulated concrete form). Walls are R-55 with spray foam in the attic for R-38..............supposedly you can heat it with a candle and cool it with a ice cube.
Windows are fiberglass casement. Our climate isn't severe.
We have two upright freezers, a side by side fridge (in basement) and a Sub Zero all refrigerator. I'm not running an all electric house , unlike the norm. Our clothes dryer is propane, as is the range top of the dual fuel stove. We cook on the gas grill more often than not.
We keep out thermostat at 76* in the cooling season and 74* in the winter. We are heating and cooling with Geothermal. Can't get much more efficient than that. I also have a whole house air exchanger, which is recommend with ICF construction, due to tightness.
Not complaining, it's just the facts. Electricity is expensive, even though we have an electrical coop that is considered the best in the area. There is another one that isn't recommended. However, one does not have a choice, either.
I wouldn't even consider an alternate source of energy,other than my whole house backup propane generator.
Windows are fiberglass casement. Our climate isn't severe.We have two upright freezers, a side by side fridge (in basement) and a Sub Zero all refrigerator. I'm not running an all electric house , unlike the norm. Our clothes dryer is propane, as is the range top of the dual fuel stove. We cook on the gas grill more often than not.
We keep out thermostat at 76* in the cooling season and 74* in the winter. We are heating and cooling with Geothermal. Can't get much more efficient than that. I also have a whole house air exchanger, which is recommend with ICF construction, due to tightness.
Not complaining, it's just the facts. Electricity is expensive, even though we have an electrical coop that is considered the best in the area. There is another one that isn't recommended. However, one does not have a choice, either.
I wouldn't even consider an alternate source of energy,other than my whole house backup propane generator.
I replaced 2 AC/furnace units @ 14 yrs, expected EOL was about 16. Got a deal with Nest and local power Co, 200$ was highest bill for 2 yrs, deal is off but the change from 9 to 11 rating makes a difference. Did get one evap coil blown/replaced - cost is WAY up right now. 8# 410a = 800$, discounts from the 1500$ the other guy wanted.
Petrol & Powder
Well-Known Member
John G - WELL DONE.
Good Work
Good Work
Glaciers
Alaska Land of the Midnight Sun
Winelover those ICF walls are awesome.
You have a obviously modern well thought out structure there. It's nice when you have to have a air to air exchanger because your house is so tight.
New construction is expensive but the long term value is certainly there. Most people are stuck with renovating. Making a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
Up here, maybe everywhere, don't know, we call your house a 5 star rated house. Built 2800 square foot 5 star house in 2003. Ordered all material about two weeks before the Iraq war started sucking all the materials up in the country. Teacher friend of my wife's hired me and we had budgeted for two other helpers. All available help went to work for contractors on base. Anyway long store short John the owner ended up being my helper when he wasn't at his 40 hour a week teaching job. Because of the labor shortage it took me from April 03 till February of 04 to complete the job. Nice place, clear fir stairwell and railings, maple floors, birch window casings, got to do a fair amount of custom work with good quality woods. The clear fir open stairwell had no fasteners showing.
You have a obviously modern well thought out structure there. It's nice when you have to have a air to air exchanger because your house is so tight.
New construction is expensive but the long term value is certainly there. Most people are stuck with renovating. Making a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
Up here, maybe everywhere, don't know, we call your house a 5 star rated house. Built 2800 square foot 5 star house in 2003. Ordered all material about two weeks before the Iraq war started sucking all the materials up in the country. Teacher friend of my wife's hired me and we had budgeted for two other helpers. All available help went to work for contractors on base. Anyway long store short John the owner ended up being my helper when he wasn't at his 40 hour a week teaching job. Because of the labor shortage it took me from April 03 till February of 04 to complete the job. Nice place, clear fir stairwell and railings, maple floors, birch window casings, got to do a fair amount of custom work with good quality woods. The clear fir open stairwell had no fasteners showing.
Bret4207
At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
I can't imagine what our power bills would be if I didn't heat nearly exclusively with wood and if we had A/C other than a window unit for my wife we use once or twice every couple years.
Also rather amazed at the square footage some here have. I suppose some go for sq ft and others go for acreage. To each their own.
Also rather amazed at the square footage some here have. I suppose some go for sq ft and others go for acreage. To each their own.
John has both, 4,000 sq ft house and 57 acres.
I hate him but jealousy is a terrible thing.