AR15 From mould to target

Brad

Benevolent Overlord and site owner
Staff member
Swaging takes some time to get right too. There is a feel to it from my understanding.
Walter, save the money and get a new video camera since yours is obviously broken!:sigh:
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
yeaaah it ain't cheap.
you might be able to find some older Ch4D die sets out there though. [200$ ish]
they are really simple and are only 2 die steps, so you need to be able to make the cores to weight.
and you have to buy rather than make jackets. [unless you have another set to make the jackets]
they use push stems like the LEE size dies use so you don't need a threaded ram.

you might also find some older S.A.S. stuff, but it's not compatible with anyone elses stuff even though they look similar.
or some real simple C-H swaging stuff that was for half jackets, or for sizing and locking on the zinc washers some of the lyman molds used.

swaging is a learning experience not only in the process of bullet making [and measuring] but if your able to test them on animals you get a real good insight as to what makes a good bullet good, and why velocity matters.
you also get to see there is more than one way to influence how a hunting bullet works [internally] and what it takes to make an accurate target bullet.
your gonna pay for that learning experience though.

look around Larry Blackmon's site some.[bullet swaging supply company airc]
he is the guy that makes gator checks.

BT Sniper [Brian] is competitively priced with anyone and his work is quality.
you can make bullets as good as [or slightly better with careful work] than sierra or anyone else in that group with his dies

there are some die sets out there that will make you suck in your breath and tighten up your butthole some when you see their cost.
neische [sp?] is one of them, but you can clearly see that the hubble scope makers could learn how to polish metal from him if you ever see one of his bench rest dies.


I have most of the above equipment, except the Neische and Blackmon's stuff, and some poor examples of some others work.
you get what you pay for, or pay for what you get I guess would be the way to say it.
 

JonB

Halcyon member
I've played with this a little bit...I mean a little.
I received advice that H4895 was a good powder to use with cast bullets, so it's what I tried.
These are my notes, this was several years ago, I barely even remembering doing this. I do remember that at the same time, I was loading a large batch of 55 FMJ ammo (1500 rds), I don't shoot the AR very often, and when I do it's FMJ ammo.

I used the 62gr HM² cast with 94-3-3 alloy, sized to .226 with homemade Alum GC, and lubed with SL68B, loaded with H4895 for my DPMS AR-15 556 (1:9). This was just a test to see what cycles the action. I loaded about 6 rds of each. 18gr. 19gr. 20gr. 21gr.

the 18gr didn't eject the brass
the 19gr ejected the brass, but didn't cycle a new round into the chamber...except the last round, which jammed.
the 20gr cycled as it should, but seemed slow, like a howitzer.
the 21gr cycled perfectly.


I recall having pretty good accuracy with 21 gr. but never loaded anymore.
That is all the farther I ever got with that project.
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
I umm happen to have that HM-2 mold [well the prototype of it anyway] but the cavities dimensions are the ones that went into production.
it had about 60 lbs of alloy go through it as part of the initial testing phase, at one point I had a pile of about 40lbs. of 22 bullets sitting there.
 

BHuij

Active Member
..... Has any one made the full trip with a standard 223 carbine in the AR15 from casting to target and came up with at least 4moa that will cycle, and not lead up, or dirty up the gun, too bad.
Interested in successes, failures, powder choices and why.

I did some pretty extensive testing with cast .223. Long (LONG) story short, my best groups came from the Lee 55gr flat point mold, copper gas checks (consistently outshot aluminum gas checks for some reason), powder coated, heat treated at 425 degrees F and water dropped after powder coating, aged for 2 weeks for hardness to stabilize, and loaded over 19.6 grains of H335. Held just under 3 MOA for me, in 10-shot groups. I later found out that even M193 55gr jacketed bullets didn't shoot that well through the barrel-shaped piece of trash that was sticking out of my upper. I have since gotten a new barrel, but haven't gotten around to playing with cast more. I suspect that 19-20gr range of H335 or Ramshot TAC (with which I achieve similar accuracy) is a pretty good sweet spot for your average .223 16" barrel. It DOES cycle.

Edit: Should mention this was straight 100% COWW alloy. I suspect I could tighten those groups down even more by playing with some better alloy for the job. Something with a bit more antimony and tin would likely improve things noticeably.
 
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Mitty38

Well-Known Member
I did some pretty extensive testing with cast .223. Long (LONG) story short, my best groups came from the Lee 55gr flat point mold, copper gas checks (consistently outshot aluminum gas checks for some reason), powder coated, heat treated at 425 degrees F and water dropped after powder coating, aged for 2 weeks for hardness to stabilize, and loaded over 19.6 grains of H335. Held just under 3 MOA for me, in 10-shot groups. I later found out that even M193 55gr jacketed bullets didn't shoot that well through the barrel-shaped piece of trash that was sticking out of my upper. I have since gotten a new barrel, but haven't gotten around to playing with cast more. I suspect that 19-20gr range of H335 or Ramshot TAC (with which I achieve similar accuracy) is a pretty good sweet spot for your average .223 16" barrel. It DOES cycle.

Edit: Should mention this was straight 100% COWW alloy. I suspect I could tighten those groups down even more by playing with some better alloy for the job. Something with a bit more antimony and tin would likely improve things noticeably.
Maybe close to the route I take. If I so choose to take that leap. Been checking published data on plated of the same weight and starting is usually 20 -22 grain. So 19 grain should put me in that 10% reduction safe zone with that powder at 55 grain.
Going to try and find published data on lead in a bolt action to compare. Only problem I can see with your method, would be me, getting the right combo of fit, gas check, and alloy to keep from mashing the bullet into a ball and lining the barrel with lead. Think I could make up for some of the variables with neck only sizing, and PC though.
19 Grain. Would that not put you at like 2500 fps?? Kinda fast for lead isn't it?
Do not know, just asking, as I am very new at this casting thing and have a lot to learn.
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
heh no it ain't too fast.
it's about right in a 30 cal rifle though,,, how fast do you think those bullets I sent you were going in your 0-6 with that load of 4064?
anyway.
what's that Winchester powder they use in the 223?? oh yeah 748,, it starts working at about 19grs too.
4895 needs a little Dacron at 19grs to make the rifle work.
 

Mitty38

Well-Known Member
Never thought of it, but pretty darn fast. Very little drop at 100 meters.

Ian told me I do not need to be messing with fillers at the moment.:sigh: I gave him a pretty good scare. Guess I need to wait till I grow up a bit. LOL
So I promised I would leave them alone(for now).
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
fillers replace powder.
think of them as a way to make the case think it is smaller than it is.
it can get kind of esoteric from there since a half grain of filler can act like 2 grains of powder, adding more does nothing on the muzzle speed but it sure affects the pressure.
there is also a right way and a wrong way to use them.
wrong way equals pressure rings in the barrel and maybe a permanent brass lining for your chamber.
 

BHuij

Active Member
Maybe close to the route I take. If I so choose to take that leap. Been checking published data on plated of the same weight and starting is usually 20 -22 grain. So 19 grain should put me in that 10% reduction safe zone with that powder at 55 grain.
Going to try and find published data on lead in a bolt action to compare. Only problem I can see with your method, would be me, getting the right combo of fit, gas check, and alloy to keep from mashing the bullet into a ball and lining the barrel with lead. Think I could make up for some of the variables with neck only sizing, and PC though.
19 Grain. Would that not put you at like 2500 fps?? Kinda fast for lead isn't it?
Do not know, just asking, as I am very new at this casting thing and have a lot to learn.

I ran these tests before I got a chrono, so all I have is math-based guesses for velocity on that load, but yeah I think 2500 is in the ballpark. It's faster than you would traditionally hear for lead projectile velocities, but as long as it's hitting what I'm pointing at, I wouldn't say it's too fast :D I know people on this forum are shooting closer to 2800 FPS with cast .223 without issue (and with better accuracy than I have ever recorded to date).

If you powder coat and size to at least .225" or so, I don't think you'll have leading no matter how fast you push it, particularly with a gas check. Some of the higher end loads I tested were straight up jacketed load velocity with IMR 4895, in the range of 3k FPS, and although accuracy was garbage (indicating that pressures were totally overwhelming the bullet's structure), my barrel was still squeaky clean at the end. In my experience, you have to really be putting forth a lot of effort to lead a barrel once powder coat and gas checks are in the equation.

Whenever I get around to testing lead .223 in my AR again, the starting point for me will be a good 93/3/4 Lead/Tin/Antimony mix or somewhere in that zip code, probably air cooled to start and heat treated if I feel like that might tighten up my groups later. Ramshot TAC or H335, maybe IMR 4895 if those two don't get me where I want to go.

I already shoot practical pistol competitions with cast lead in my 9mm, and am currently working up a load with M193 jacketed 55s for my AR because I'll be shooting 2 gun come August. The dream would be to replace the .223 for 2 gun with cast. I expect if I could get good accuracy in the range of 2800 FPS, I could probably get away with shots out to 300-400 yards okay.
 
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fiver

Well-Known Member
300 is doable at 2800.
there ain't no oomph left when the bullet gets there, but hitting stuff is doable for sure.

I think if I ever revisit load workup's again I might be real tempted to look at AA=2230 and CFE=223.
one because I have a LOT of 2230 and it has worked very well in reduced loadings in other cases.
and two because CFE impressed me working in the 308 and XCB cartridges.
 

Mitty38

Well-Known Member
This has been a pretty educational thread so far. A lot of good Ideas and approaches. Might just help a fellow decide how, or if; he might go about this, using his skills and resources.:cool: