Article #10: Buffers, Fillers, and other "taboo" subjects
- Thread starter Ian
- Start date
RicinYakima
High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Because that is what works, if you really shoot and not just follow.
I just looked in some of the old Lyman books, found a place that looked right and worked up a bit. I think I started at 22 and when I got to 24 it shot well and felt right. Velocity was in a window I liked too.
Like fiver I use less if I go with a filler.
Like fiver I use less if I go with a filler.
CZ93X62
Official forum enigma
1--Dacron fiber to place the powder near the primer......I don't do THAT again. I have a nice flatband Winchester 94 now performing as a 38/55 thanks to JES Reboring. It started life in 25/35 WCF, but a Dacron tuft meant to place the powder ALSO ringed the chamber at the neck/shoulder junction of the 25/35's slopey taper.
2--"Reactive filler"......nice nomenclature. In 45/70, I started with milsurp WC-860 (Purina 50 BMG Chow) that not-so-long-ago sold for $3/pound at GI Brass. Using 100%-density loadings under a 405 grain Lee bullet and about 1/16" of compression, 54.0 grains of WC-860 lit by Fed #215 primers gave about 1000 FPS and a large amount of unburned powder in the bore. Velocities had large ES an SDs, too. Unsatisfactory. 2.0 grains of IMR-4198 as a "kicker" cleaned up some of the zombie granules, velocities gained almost 100 FPS, still had big ES and SD. Main charge was 52.0 x 860.
Next came 4.0 x 4198/50.0 x 860. Most of the powder carcasses were gone, a little grit after each shot. 1200 FPS ballpark, ES and SD both reduced significantly. Success came with 6.0 x 4198/48.0 x 860--1300 FPS velocity (BP-era performance), stellar accuracy, small ES and single-digit SDs. I really didn't view it as "Reactive filler", my viewpoint was that the kicker cleaned up the mess made by the slow-for-application fuel being re-purposed due to its cheep pricing. The loads do fine in the Marlin 1895, the Ruger #1, and a Trapdoor Bubba Special that Marie inherited from her Mom.
2--"Reactive filler"......nice nomenclature. In 45/70, I started with milsurp WC-860 (Purina 50 BMG Chow) that not-so-long-ago sold for $3/pound at GI Brass. Using 100%-density loadings under a 405 grain Lee bullet and about 1/16" of compression, 54.0 grains of WC-860 lit by Fed #215 primers gave about 1000 FPS and a large amount of unburned powder in the bore. Velocities had large ES an SDs, too. Unsatisfactory. 2.0 grains of IMR-4198 as a "kicker" cleaned up some of the zombie granules, velocities gained almost 100 FPS, still had big ES and SD. Main charge was 52.0 x 860.
Next came 4.0 x 4198/50.0 x 860. Most of the powder carcasses were gone, a little grit after each shot. 1200 FPS ballpark, ES and SD both reduced significantly. Success came with 6.0 x 4198/48.0 x 860--1300 FPS velocity (BP-era performance), stellar accuracy, small ES and single-digit SDs. I really didn't view it as "Reactive filler", my viewpoint was that the kicker cleaned up the mess made by the slow-for-application fuel being re-purposed due to its cheep pricing. The loads do fine in the Marlin 1895, the Ruger #1, and a Trapdoor Bubba Special that Marie inherited from her Mom.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Thanks for all the excellent replies. It would appear that the reports I've read about 2400 not being position sensitive are either based on limited data (pistol cases) or just another example of internet BS being spoken as fact.
What I like about any new experience is the learning process. The web has accelerated most any learning process with the caveat that you might take a step or two backwards due to bad info being shared as fact.
No, I'm not looking to start my own ballistics lab and experiment with things like 20mm powder. Although several years ago I was offered what appeared to be about a 10 lb keg of some old military power, which I politely refused. But curiosity got the both of us. So, we took a spoonful, set it on a log and touched a match to it. Nothing. Upon closer inspection I determined it to be calcium carbide for making acetylene.
My goal here is an accurate load out to 500 yds with a decrease in recoil. My BP load was 70 gr of Cartridge with a 540gr Postell out of a Paul Jones mold. It knocks the rams down with authority. And somewhere, I have a target shot at 300 yds with about a 2.5 inch 5 shot group. But the geezer factor at the club has made resetting targets a challenge so now we shoot swingers. I want to go down to a 457193 at 420gr, but still be able to reach the rams with a degree of accuracy and consistency.
Yes, and that was the point of my question. The Lyman loads for the cartridge all include the Dacron wad mentioned previously. But, as has been stated above by others, just how that wad, (wadding, filler, powder positioner) is placed is very important. So, if it could be eliminated safely, that would be my preference. Unfortunately, it seems that for every shooter that does not use wadding, there is another who warns against that practice, pretty much cancelling each other out. One of the pitfalls of the internet.
I did notice the Trail Boss when I was researching powders. I have to admit that I'm out of date on current offerings, having not done any smokeless reloading in close to 15 years due to other things taking precedent. I found the Trail Boss loading info interesting to say the least. Fill the case full and then start with 60% of that amount if I remember right. That certainly flies in the face of all the things I learned about loading smokeless powders 40 years ago. But that might be the solution.
What I like about any new experience is the learning process. The web has accelerated most any learning process with the caveat that you might take a step or two backwards due to bad info being shared as fact.
No, I'm not looking to start my own ballistics lab and experiment with things like 20mm powder. Although several years ago I was offered what appeared to be about a 10 lb keg of some old military power, which I politely refused. But curiosity got the both of us. So, we took a spoonful, set it on a log and touched a match to it. Nothing. Upon closer inspection I determined it to be calcium carbide for making acetylene.
My goal here is an accurate load out to 500 yds with a decrease in recoil. My BP load was 70 gr of Cartridge with a 540gr Postell out of a Paul Jones mold. It knocks the rams down with authority. And somewhere, I have a target shot at 300 yds with about a 2.5 inch 5 shot group. But the geezer factor at the club has made resetting targets a challenge so now we shoot swingers. I want to go down to a 457193 at 420gr, but still be able to reach the rams with a degree of accuracy and consistency.
Yes, and that was the point of my question. The Lyman loads for the cartridge all include the Dacron wad mentioned previously. But, as has been stated above by others, just how that wad, (wadding, filler, powder positioner) is placed is very important. So, if it could be eliminated safely, that would be my preference. Unfortunately, it seems that for every shooter that does not use wadding, there is another who warns against that practice, pretty much cancelling each other out. One of the pitfalls of the internet.
I did notice the Trail Boss when I was researching powders. I have to admit that I'm out of date on current offerings, having not done any smokeless reloading in close to 15 years due to other things taking precedent. I found the Trail Boss loading info interesting to say the least. Fill the case full and then start with 60% of that amount if I remember right. That certainly flies in the face of all the things I learned about loading smokeless powders 40 years ago. But that might be the solution.
Anybody that has looked inside a 105 case will see the 3" 'kicker' tube there. Don't think there is a powder that is not sensitive to 'position' - actually it's the ignition difference that we call position problems. Dacron and 'filler' is a workaround we use to solve a problem we create by low powder fill.
Decades ago when I started messing with BPCR's my mentor gave me a smokeless load of 26grs of 5744 under a Lyman Postell in 45-70. My goal has always been to duplicate my best BP loads, a 1/4sheet of TP pushed down lightly over the powder charge will help with chronograph #'s.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
My POS PACT timer/chrono bit the dust last week. It was like new and always kept in a cool dry place. I sent an email to PACT because they no longer have phone support and have yet to get a reply. When I bought it back in the early 90's, it was the hot set-up being a timer and a chrono. I did some searching when it died to see if it was a common problem and if it was something I could fix myself. All I found were different ways to describe PACT products and the company as a POS.
So, until I replace the chronograph, or can use one of my friends', my test for a load will be group size.
So, until I replace the chronograph, or can use one of my friends', my test for a load will be group size.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
We have a silhouette shoot this weekend so I thought I'd try going into the match blind. I had an old can of 4227. Bought some light loft Dacron batting, cut some 1/2 x 5/8 (dimensions given in the Lyman Manual) wads and split each one into 2 wads which gave a 0.5gr weight.
Using a 457193 Lyman bullet, I loaded 22 gr of 4227 with the Dacron wad just placed into the case with tweezers. Seated the bullet 2.665 deep, no crimp. Federal Large Rifle primer.
This will be the first time I have ever shot smokeless powder in a silhouette match. Never shot this load at all, and have not used this bullet in many years. Bought a 540 gr Postell from Jones 20 years ago and always used that. With the club using swingers now because so many shooters are too old to reset targets, I don't need a freight train. I am considering trying out some .45ACP bullets I have to reduce recoil further. I know the twist in my Shiloh will be too slow for the shorter bullets, but you never know.
Rob
Using a 457193 Lyman bullet, I loaded 22 gr of 4227 with the Dacron wad just placed into the case with tweezers. Seated the bullet 2.665 deep, no crimp. Federal Large Rifle primer.
This will be the first time I have ever shot smokeless powder in a silhouette match. Never shot this load at all, and have not used this bullet in many years. Bought a 540 gr Postell from Jones 20 years ago and always used that. With the club using swingers now because so many shooters are too old to reset targets, I don't need a freight train. I am considering trying out some .45ACP bullets I have to reduce recoil further. I know the twist in my Shiloh will be too slow for the shorter bullets, but you never know.
Rob
RBHarter
West Central AR
Snakeoil
I can't say that your 457193 is the same as mine but I found it to be , to date , the most flexible bullet I've shot in 45-70 . That in terms of powder selection load levels etc . I do have an older 458-250 to try out and 6-7 patched ACP & Colts bullets to try .
I can't say that your 457193 is the same as mine but I found it to be , to date , the most flexible bullet I've shot in 45-70 . That in terms of powder selection load levels etc . I do have an older 458-250 to try out and 6-7 patched ACP & Colts bullets to try .
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Results on Sunday were mixed. Only shot a 20. One of issues was chasing sight settings. Shot about a 6 inch group on turkeys (400 yds) but they were not all ON the turkey. Made sight moves and put next bullet in same hole. Rams at 500 was very strange. First 2 sighters were 2 feet low. I made 5 min adjustments up and bullet never moved. 15 min total (60") and finally put one about a foot over the back. Over the next few, cranked most of the elev back down at started to drill the ram within about an 8 to 10 inch group.
It was really just an excercise to burn up some ancient 4227. Will be moving to 2400. Already using that in the '03.
It was really just an excercise to burn up some ancient 4227. Will be moving to 2400. Already using that in the '03.
fiver
Well-Known Member
did y'all know the 454 was originally called the 450 express?
it was a rimless case based on the 284 win for more capacity then the 45 colt has and a higher pressure web area.
the length of the case fell in between the 45 colt and the 454 casull and it head spaced on the case mouth in a revolver.
the revolver itself was a partnership between Dick and north American arms.
[yep, the ones that make those little pocket guns]
it was available in 45 win mag, 450 express, and 45 colt or all three via cylinder swaps.
I had one for a number of years, but it only had the 450 and 45 win cylinders, when I asked Dick if he might have an old cylinder kicking around that could be cut into 45 colt I got a pretty good story about the whole partnership, and how it eventually spawned the 454 casull round and the model 83 revolver.
he didn't have a cylinder but he did have most of a 35lb keg of C-1380 kicking around and we made a swap for some Unique I had during the Obama shortage.
this was about a year before he died.
it was a rimless case based on the 284 win for more capacity then the 45 colt has and a higher pressure web area.
the length of the case fell in between the 45 colt and the 454 casull and it head spaced on the case mouth in a revolver.
the revolver itself was a partnership between Dick and north American arms.
[yep, the ones that make those little pocket guns]
it was available in 45 win mag, 450 express, and 45 colt or all three via cylinder swaps.
I had one for a number of years, but it only had the 450 and 45 win cylinders, when I asked Dick if he might have an old cylinder kicking around that could be cut into 45 colt I got a pretty good story about the whole partnership, and how it eventually spawned the 454 casull round and the model 83 revolver.
he didn't have a cylinder but he did have most of a 35lb keg of C-1380 kicking around and we made a swap for some Unique I had during the Obama shortage.
this was about a year before he died.
Snakeoil
Well-Known Member
Shot silhouettes again last Sunday with the Shiloh. This time load was 24 gr of 2400 under a 380 gr round nose and a dacron batting filler. Shot okay, a 22. Nothing to write home about. But I did get 8 rams.
I had some some impact points change and then go back. Was not sure why that happened. Iron sights so no scope to reset. Light was not changing and the wind if any, was minimal. When I got home I was sitting at the bench decapping the empties. I had 4 rounds left in the box and they were sitting in their staring at me. After a couple of brief glances I looked a bit closer and damn if it did not seem like there were two different bullet types within those 4 rounds. When I was done decapping, I took a closer look. Yup, both appear to be the 366gr Lyman RN, but there were subtle differences. One had a bit more cone to the nose and the tip radius was smaller. Both had 4 lands, but they were a bit different. Weight showed a nominal 5 gr difference between the two. I went over to my ammo cabinet and looked at the 10 or so that were left over. Half were one type, half were the other.
I had gotten these about 20 years ago when I first got the Sharps. I was buying precast bullets to break in the barrel and bought all the local shop had. I needed more and asked a friend if he knew where I could get some locally. His reply was "I have lots of bullets cast, I'll give you some." I offered to pay and he would not take a dime. He gave me a coffee can full of Lyman RN bullets. I'm thinking he had more than one mold and might throw all his culls into a bucket and it was the culls he gave me. I never noticed because I was just throwing lead downrange and cleaning between each shot.
The best part about this is in spite of all the mantras about perfect bullets and such, I still managed to shoot as 22 off sticks with two different bullets.
This reminds me of an episode at the club many years ago. Paul Matthews was having a spirited discussion about what is required for accuracy. He said that the bullet base must be perfect. My late friend Adrian told him it was pure BS. Paul would not let up, so Adrian took one of his slugs out of the cartridge and cut the base off with a pair of side cutters and stuffed it back into the case. He leveled the rifle and hit the Ram at 500 yds. Then he took it a step further and clipped the nose off another and hit the target again. Guys still talk about that day.
I had some some impact points change and then go back. Was not sure why that happened. Iron sights so no scope to reset. Light was not changing and the wind if any, was minimal. When I got home I was sitting at the bench decapping the empties. I had 4 rounds left in the box and they were sitting in their staring at me. After a couple of brief glances I looked a bit closer and damn if it did not seem like there were two different bullet types within those 4 rounds. When I was done decapping, I took a closer look. Yup, both appear to be the 366gr Lyman RN, but there were subtle differences. One had a bit more cone to the nose and the tip radius was smaller. Both had 4 lands, but they were a bit different. Weight showed a nominal 5 gr difference between the two. I went over to my ammo cabinet and looked at the 10 or so that were left over. Half were one type, half were the other.
I had gotten these about 20 years ago when I first got the Sharps. I was buying precast bullets to break in the barrel and bought all the local shop had. I needed more and asked a friend if he knew where I could get some locally. His reply was "I have lots of bullets cast, I'll give you some." I offered to pay and he would not take a dime. He gave me a coffee can full of Lyman RN bullets. I'm thinking he had more than one mold and might throw all his culls into a bucket and it was the culls he gave me. I never noticed because I was just throwing lead downrange and cleaning between each shot.
The best part about this is in spite of all the mantras about perfect bullets and such, I still managed to shoot as 22 off sticks with two different bullets.
This reminds me of an episode at the club many years ago. Paul Matthews was having a spirited discussion about what is required for accuracy. He said that the bullet base must be perfect. My late friend Adrian told him it was pure BS. Paul would not let up, so Adrian took one of his slugs out of the cartridge and cut the base off with a pair of side cutters and stuffed it back into the case. He leveled the rifle and hit the Ram at 500 yds. Then he took it a step further and clipped the nose off another and hit the target again. Guys still talk about that day.