Blackpowder cartridges......Fletcher class WW2 DD torpedo launching

[Pistolero]

I'll look into that HE-ICM, never heard of it. Sounds pretty effective.

Even WW2 5" guns were pretty serious, although more limited in range. They knew it and
would charge in at high speed to get within range, and frequently to get literally "under"
the larger caliber cruiser and BB guns, which were not able to depress low enough angle
to hit them at very short ranges. A 5" shell, even WW2 types, could really shred ordinary
superstructures and pretty much any of the radar, radio antennas, optics and such equipment
as was topside, and critical to fight the ships. So, 20 or 30 5" hits on a cruiser could make her
pretty combat ineffective with no rangefinders or primary optics systems, and damaged
comms capability. No way to sink a cruiser or BB with 5", but they could be turned into
a fiery junkyard above the main deck.
From after action reports, apparently all six Japanese cruisers were seriously damaged above
decks from 5" fire, 50 cal strafing and some non-armor piercing ground attack aerial bombs. Add
in one cruiser stern blown off by a torpedo, and it is easier to see why Kurita thought he
was engaging bigger ships. He must have been getting a constant flow of serious damage
reports from his cruisers, and he was seeing a LOT of aircraft....which he was unaware had
no access to torpedoes or armor piercing bombs, so dramatically reduced in their
ability to sink his capital ships. The issue is that the escort carriers' assigned mission was
to support the troops ashore, so they were loaded out with ground attack bombs for their
aircraft, extremely limited numbers of torpedoes and armor piercing bombs. Plus once the escort
carriers started running for their lives, turning into the wind for launching and recovering
aircraft became somewhere between limited and impossible, so their aircraft went
ashore on the Philippines for fuel and bombs, but the shore field was extremely muddy and
had very limited bomb and fuel supplies and no ship attack munitions. The new runway
was built to support the troops who had landed.

 

[Bret4207]

Well, I can tell you first hand that even a 22 looks pretty darn big when it's pointed at your face from a couple feet away, so I imagine a dinky 5" gun is worlds better than no guns at all! Maybe I'm too old fashioned and the newest gizmos are "more better" as my late FIL used to say. Not much chance I'll be in a position to make any first person judgements at any rate.

 

[popper]

Last 3 heavy cruisers were 670'. 33knots top end. 5/38 was developed after WWI as 3" wouldn't take out armored aircraft. As a kid I saw films of Midway (IIRC). Airburst shells created a AA screen (falling stuff) that got most planes. Actually twin gun turrets could fire 16 rnd/min manual loaded for short time so combat was about the same as new 5/60". 5/54 was longer barrel and more powder. Me and 3 others developed harpoon guidance prototype, warhead was not that big. Not intended to be armor piercing. Actually used as airdrop, ship board and some subs. Many country navies use it.
Try https://garlanddavis.net/ for the joshau incident. operation praying mantis

 

[Pistolero]

Seriously cool, popper. Harpoon is a pretty effective weapon from all reports. Big thumbs up!
I was generally familiar with Preying Mantis, but the "no sh*t...." was good to read.

Bill

 

[RBHarter]

The 16" were very impressive . The last refit of the Iowa gave her Loran/GPS fire guidance .
In WWII a good crew could keep the shells inside a football stadium at 25 miles . With the radar/radio guided fire gear in Vietnam they were able to do the same at 45 miles . With the final refit , rocket assisted projectiles , the last charge improvements , 75 miles inside the field grid became very easy and regular . 115 in the stadium . 72x300 doesn't seem like much of a group but at 50 miles it's tiny .
500# of TNT delivered isn't anything to sneeze at either .
Of course that's nothing like being able to fly 100 miles to a particular door and choose between the door knob and the door knocker .

 

[Pistolero]

I was unaware of the rocket assisted projectiles for the 16" naval rifles, and any range beyond about 23 miles or
so. Even more impressive.

Bill

 

[Bret4207]

There will always be something to be said for anything that can dump a ton of HE on a target from 75 miles away.

 

[RBHarter]

There is a story said to be first person from Vietnam .
It goes .....

We had tried about 3 ways to get up this hill but the dug ins had us ranged from some caves and pretty well locked up . Couldn't go forward or back . We called for artillery and were told none available . A minute or so later we got a call in from fire control base Iowa requesting coordinates and (I can't remember what it was called but basically a grid A,A,1,1 reference as the Navy and Army were using different map grids with a common 0 point) . We gave them both and waited . " Red dog - FCB Iowa , firing for confirmation ,..... rounds away ." We waited ...........then we heard it , tthhhhhhhhssssshhhhhhhh, whoomp boom . "FCB Iowa -red dog , good hit , fire away . " Red dog FCB Iowa confirmed rounds away 3&3 in 3,2,1 rounds away " . Again we waited wondering if they had actually fired ....... FCB Iowa Red dog direct hit 3/3 , boom boom boom ........ummm times 2 " .
When the patrol went in they learned that they had had Naval Artillery support 26 miles inland . When asked where it came from they were told that FCB Iowa was in fact The USS Iowa 14 miles out .

I would like to imagine that that kind of fire support would set a pretty high bar for ground based 155 , 3"/50 & 5"/38s . It's just mind boggling to me having shot ducks out of a boat that they could get a round inside 3 rivers stadium at 5000 yd let alone 20 miles .

 

[462]

RB,
That was the U. S. S. New Jersey, an Iowa class battleship. Don't know how far away it was, but I heard it several times.

Yes, those old 16" guns were amazingly accurate, and with a very large kill radius.

 

[Pistolero]

I had a bit of a tour of New Jersey. My father was skipper of his deep draft command and was tied up at one of the deep draft
piers at Norfolk, used for oilers, carriers and BBs. I happened to be on my father's ship's bridge as NJ arrived with tugs, across the pier
from us.
What a great place to watch that evolution! After she got docked, my father called over and asked if we could come aboard.
The NJ skipper met us at the brow, and we walked the NJ's deck and he let me stick my head up into a 16" gun turret. The hatch is on
the rear overhang, on the bottom, you duck under and stand up in the hole. WOW! is that place packed with complex stuff
that I could only partially recognize in a few minutes of looking. The gun breeches dominate, of course, but lots of polished brass
and many handles, levers and gauges.

A memorable experience, for sure. About 1970, IIRC.

USS Iowa was out of commission during VN, USS New Jersey was about the only BB in VN era, I think. USS Wisconsin and USS Iowa were recommissioned in the 80s for a while, too.

 

[popper]

USS Mass. was in Newport when I got there, very impressive.

 

[RBHarter]

The barrels from the Iowa accident were at Hawthorne . Ultimately a full set .......
Tragically they were chopped up for scrap a few yr ago .

Tid bits
16"/50 was related to the actual barrel dimensions . The 50 is the length of the barrel in calibers . 66'8" , 2 calibers muzzle dia . It took 4 truck loads to haul off one barrel on standard trucks . When the barrels were shipped for the Iowa 1 went by a special oversize truck the other 2 went by a 6 axle 70' rail flat car .

 

[Pistolero]

It's really as shame to lose that punch, but mostly it was for armor piercing and nothing has that kind of
armor any more.

Bill

 

[Bret4207]

No nothing has that kind of armor anymore, but fortified structures on land react in the same basic way- they stop being safe places to hide.

When I went in the Corps in Jan of '79 pretty much everyone over the rank of Staff Sgt was a Vietnam veteran. If I heard it once, I heard it a thousand times- tales of what naval gunfire from the big guns sounded like going over heard (like a freight train was the most common descriptor) and how accurate and devastating it was. I would imagine a lot of that gunfire was from guns smaller than the Iowa class 16 inchers.

 

[Rick H]

The 8"x55caliber rifles of heavy cruisers were no joke either...range 18 miles, projectiles 260-335lbs. With special Long range bombardment rounds the USS St. Paul made confirmed hits in NVA bunkers at a range of 35 miles. They had a firing rate of 4-5 rpm per gun....with 3 triple turrets that is an awesome amount of firepower. Downside was barrel liners only lasted 715+ rounds. Those CA's had wartime crews of up to 1500 men. Contrasted with modern Ticonderoga class cruisers with a crew of 400.

 

[Pistolero]

On a Tico boat, push a button, SM2 auto loads on the rail, read to go.
On a 3 bbl gun turret, probably around 6-8 men up top and some more below moving shells into the elevators. Maybe 20 or more per turret, with ranging, computations, etc and the black gang must have been 10 times as many as modern engineering dept with GTs.
Nobody at all in a modern 5 in turret.