Brazen cheating in public [Marble sight cheat sheet?]

[Elric]

Nothing like a pile of unlabelled and incomplete sights scattered about to give the impetous to try and figure them out.

Feeling an urge to list the screws by Marbles' number... base angle... screw spacing... include staff height... this would also bee helpful to users of other brands, as the screw information will be the same. A 10-32 x .342 by any other name is just as sweet...

 

[Elric]

Wow, that's not right.

Well, I dumped the Marble's tang sight screw list into HTML. Then I compared the list against Midway's list. Different!

For instance, 995004 [Win 1885 original] shows THREE short screws. Not correct. My low wall has a .342" long at the front and a long screw at the rear.

I had to look at Midway's compatibility chart to see they called it out as 995021, but that might not be correct, either. Need to go downstairs and measure the rear screw length and diameter to be sure.

UPDATE: I did some painful probulation with a Brownell's Screw Checker... The rear sight mounting screw on an original Winchester low wall 1885 is 12-28 x 1.650, the Marbles tang sight [marked W1] is 0.125" thick at the rear edge. The rear tang screw is tapered from the top of the thread growing wider all the way up to the bottom of the screw head. Roughly 0.215 up to 0.228

So, 1.650 plus 0.125 is 1.775

UPDATE: Front tang sight screw is a 10-32

Wow, neither the list or Midway matches my gun, a 10-32 front and a 12-28 rear.

 

[david s]

You mentioned in your other post that your rifle was a Miroku built Low Wall out of Japan. I'm betting your rear tang screw is metric. The rear thru stock tang screw on the Browning model 92's built by Miroku are metric. Marbles makes these (model 92) metric screws. That said Buffalo Arms list the screws for the Current Production Winchester Low Wall Marbles tang sight (item number mar009830) as front and rear 10-32X.342 (item number MAR995001 in stock) as you mentioned in your original posting. The screw for the original Winchester is listed as Front 10-32X.342 and rear 12-28X2.235 (item number mar995021) and in stock. It appears you get to play multiple choice games.

 

[Elric]

Stumbled downstairs and unscrewed the front screw out of the original 1885 Low Wall and screwed it into the Japanese Low Wall, went in as smooth as you please... No stacking, went in until the underside of the screw head hit the receiver.

So at least for this original Low Wall, it's 10-32 front. The Browning / Miroku Traditional Hunter has a tang [very important!] and yes, 10-32x.342 is spot-on.

I tried sending a query to Marble's, using their input form, I need to resend to customerservice@marblearms.com That 2.235 is useable, but the original is 1.650, so adding the 0.125 of the tang sight base doesn't come near it. Marbles does have a 12-28x1.8, they might do a mix 'n match...

I should also run the 12-28 into the [original] 1885 without a sight base and check to see if it reaches the bottom of the lower tang.

PS. This 32-20 is tight, but isn't a 98% condition specimen. Barrel needs to be draw-filed and re-blued. The holes for the scope bases should be plugged and the extra filed flat. But it should be a terror on squirrels....

 

[Glaciers]

Have yet to install mine in my original, but the original tang screw and the length of the Marbles screw you list above are the same as mine. It looks like cutting down the longer screw would not work as it appears it will run out of threads, or very close.
Having a difficult time getting the small screw to loosen.
So you believe the screws that came from Marbles are the correct thread, but the long screw is just that, to long. The 1.8" length looks to be the correct length.

 

[Glaciers]

 

[Elric]

I suppose you could use a belt sander / hacksaw to take the long screw down, but you'ld have to re-cut the thread.

 

[Elric]

View attachment 22352

Oh-ho! See the individual screws for the set 995021 are specified -
009752 10-36 x .355 OAL
009762 12-28 x 2.235 OAL

Bet I can mix n match...

 

[Glaciers]

I don't have the 1.8" screw offered by Marbles, the short screw in the picture is the original

 

[Glaciers]

Buffalo arms has the screw set with a 12x28 X 1.9 long. They have them in stock, I just ordered one.

Marbles Screw Set Front10-36x.355 Rear 12-28x1.9

www.buffaloarms.com

 

[Elric]

Buffalo arms has the screw set with a 12x28 X 1.9 long. They have them in stock, I just ordered one.

Marbles Screw Set Front10-36x.355 Rear 12-28x1.9

www.buffaloarms.com

I got a reply from Marbles, telling me to use 995021, 10-36 front, and 12-28 rear 2.235! Now the front screw hole might have been chased out with a 10-32, but trying to change it to a 10-36 would be troubling. The 12-28 x 2.235 threaded portion would have 0.200 - 0.300 removed in order to get it flush with the bottom tang. Possibility exists that the threads would have to be extended upward into the un-threaded screw shaft by using a 12-28 die.

Not sure if Buffalo has anymore 995017 in stock [you got the last one!] BUT they actually identify the threads and OAL... Midway has them, but most screw sets don't have screw threads / OAL...

List of Marbles screw sets on Buffalo Arms

Oohhh... lookee here... MAR995003 has 10-32 x .342 -AND- 10-36 x .355 with a 12-28 x 1.9

Covers all bases.

 

[Glaciers]

Well when the last screw set from Buffalo gets here I'll find out. When, and I mean when I am able to get the upper screw out, I will carefully try the 10 x32, if it does not fit, then the 10 x36 hopefully will.
Weird that Marbles has this wrong. I did thread the 12x 28 X 2.235 in the rifle and it did go just fine.

 

[Glaciers]

Well I just tried the short upper screw 10x 36 that came with the screw set (long lower screw) and it does not work about a half a turn and that's it. Looking at it under a glass it appears to be finer thread, maybe 10 X 40. Ill check with Dave if can check the threads. Dave says he can check the threads, so he's just down the road. Let you know shortly

 

[Glaciers]

Well it doesn't seem to be 10x32 or 10x36. Yeah sounds nuts. Talked to Buffalo and there sending a set with the shorter big screw and both the #10 threads. Don't know at this point.

 

[Elric]

I looked in my copy of "The Winchester Single-Shot - a history & analysis" by John Campbell, ISBN: 0-917218-68-X, drawing on page 241, titled "Model 85 low-wall specifications", the sear spring screw [aka front sight screw] is called out as a 10-32, the upper tang screw [aka rear sight screw] is called out as a 12-28, refer to the reprint from the American Rifleman on page 244 for the naming nomenclature.

 

[Elric]

Just ordered MAR995001 and MAR995003 through Buffalo Arms. Wish I coulda got the 12-28 x 1.8, but I'm not looking to buy half a set.

I tried ordering through Midway, but they do not identify the individual screws in the set [a few sets do, but exception proves the rule].

Buffalo Arms lists the screw specs for each set, so there is no confusion...

 

[Elric]

NOTE: the Marble W1 sight base was listed for the 1894 - .25-35, .30-30, and .32 Special. The W5 is listed for all Single Shots except .22 CF and .30-40 [US Army], the W6 is for the .22 CF and .30 Army.

"The Winchester Single-Shot – Volume II Old Secrets and New Discoveries" by John Campbell, ISBN: 0-917218-91-4 Page 193 drawing titled “Tang Screw Sizes with Tool & Gage NO’S, Leaf & Flex. Rear Sight” [revision date 2/1/00]

# Long OD Dia Thread Size
2 1.860 0.270 0.229 W 0.208 x 28
4 1.612 0.270 0.220 W 0.185 x 35 ½
5 2.125 0.270 0.229 W 0.208 x 28
6 2.250 0.270 0.229 W 0.208 x 28
10 1.625 0.312 0.234 R 0.196 x 28
20 2.000 0.260 0.214 V 0.218 x 24
4-H 0.300 0.250 0.108 W 0.185 x 35 ½

# Tang Sight Screw #
Long OAL of screw
OD - Screw Head OD
DIA Diameter of screw shaft under screw head
Thread – “W” Whitworth, “R” Round, “V” V shaped
Size - Decimal and tpi

NOTE: The above screws are “Type B”, which has a shaft that tapers from the underside of the head [Body at Head], down to the thread diameter of the threaded portion at the tip.
Screw Head Top Radius – the top of all screws has a 7/16 inch radius.
Screw Slot – image is uncertain, it might be 7/32 inch.
NOTE: I looked down the screw hole for the Upper Tang Screw, and I did not see any wood of note, so that suggests any straight shank screw should work. YMMV...

 

[Elric]

Staggered downstairs and measured the screw head counterbore in the Marbles Flexible Tang Sight Base "W1"

Screw Head Counterbore OD is 0.272 inch
Screw Head Counterbore Depth is 0.062 inch
Screw Head Counterbore Screw shank OD is 0.232 inch

Thickness of W1 sight base is 0.125 inch

 

[Elric]

Tried the 12-28 x 1.9, no holy joy, it wants to start, but won't. I measured the original 12-28, and the thread OD is .204, the new screw is .210. Not sure if re-tapping the tang is what I want. There is a possumbility the thread is Whitworth...