9
9.3X62AL
Guest
Roger that, Ian. Too many variables to control for.
Bullet diameter vs lube amount?
- Thread starter Intheshop
- Start date
fiver
Well-Known Member
the relax point is something to think about in terms like Elmer put it.
he envisioned the base pushing forward and pumping lube out to the side.
when you can't push anymore and the lube isn't getting the pressure on it to make it flow then things settle down.
you don't see this point with many lubes, and others will make that point quite clear with a smear of the lube itself where it goes down past the point where it can successfully flow on it's own.
you generally see an antimonial wash start soon afterwards.
add some oil or a middle modifier to that same lube and it has enough softness [lower melt/flow point] to get past it and make it to the muzzle.
those same lubes that quit on you like that will generally come out of the grooves unevenly or not at all on their way to the target.
carnuba red is one that you can see this happen with quite often and manipulate where it quits by changing the gas volume behind the bullet.
he envisioned the base pushing forward and pumping lube out to the side.
when you can't push anymore and the lube isn't getting the pressure on it to make it flow then things settle down.
you don't see this point with many lubes, and others will make that point quite clear with a smear of the lube itself where it goes down past the point where it can successfully flow on it's own.
you generally see an antimonial wash start soon afterwards.
add some oil or a middle modifier to that same lube and it has enough softness [lower melt/flow point] to get past it and make it to the muzzle.
those same lubes that quit on you like that will generally come out of the grooves unevenly or not at all on their way to the target.
carnuba red is one that you can see this happen with quite often and manipulate where it quits by changing the gas volume behind the bullet.
I don't think larger diameter bullets need more lube. I UFC shot the tumble lube 425 RD in my 45-70 with only 2-3 grooves filled. Fired at up to 1600 fps it did very well.
I too think you are better with less than more. I think it was Ian who often said a lube might not make a load more accurate but it sure can make it less accurate.
A lube star is something I used to look for but not anymore. I view it as a sign my lube is a bit too wet and probably giving me some purging issues.
I too think you are better with less than more. I think it was Ian who often said a lube might not make a load more accurate but it sure can make it less accurate.
A lube star is something I used to look for but not anymore. I view it as a sign my lube is a bit too wet and probably giving me some purging issues.
"a lube might not make a load more accurate but it sure can make it less accurate"....this one,"sticks",thanks.
It's only been the last cpl years of a 40 or so year CB habit that I even heard of lube stars.Oh,it no doubt was contained in my reading but,other than a casual glance never really cared?
My 22-250,after 75 rounds @2600 fps,is or looks,better bore wise,than before shooting.Meaning,it's spotless.Even the powder buggers are a rarity.
Slight tangent,and not sure if it's a lube vs diameter thing?...but,in cold weather,my .30's groups hold up better than the .224's.Air density?
It's only been the last cpl years of a 40 or so year CB habit that I even heard of lube stars.Oh,it no doubt was contained in my reading but,other than a casual glance never really cared?
My 22-250,after 75 rounds @2600 fps,is or looks,better bore wise,than before shooting.Meaning,it's spotless.Even the powder buggers are a rarity.
Slight tangent,and not sure if it's a lube vs diameter thing?...but,in cold weather,my .30's groups hold up better than the .224's.Air density?
Ian
Notorious member
I'm sure many readers are bored with my repetition of "balance the alloy and pressure curve for best performance" and all the other ways I've phrased that concept, but doing so really, really matters and seems to be one of the least understood factors of successful cast bullet shooting. The ternary 96/3/1 heat-treated to 22 bhn as an example will behave in a completely different manner than air-cooled straight linotype alloy of nearly the same "hardness" per the Brinell method of testing, and in the same system each will have its powder preferences and seating depth preferences, as well as bullet shape preferences.
Not really. The lube star is just made from lube left on the muzzle. It forms a Star due to gas exiting lands and grooves differently.
What it tells us is that plenty of lube, wet lube, was being pushed along with the bullet. Get a really wet lube star in the summer and you are likely seeing some purging issues too.
I prefer a minimal star that is pretty dry.
What it tells us is that plenty of lube, wet lube, was being pushed along with the bullet. Get a really wet lube star in the summer and you are likely seeing some purging issues too.
I prefer a minimal star that is pretty dry.
Gary
SE Kansas
I get the "star" with my 22's, especially with my target MKIII. My Non lubed 22Hornet (beautiful star) jacketed bullets. I haven't really noticed it at all when using BLL. I usually walk around with a handful of 22's in my Jean pockets, so whatever lube is on the 22 is pretty well worn off by the time they are used. Just curious, not trying to create a controversy.
fiver
Well-Known Member
if you see an indicator in a lube star showing a poor muzzle condition it's really screwed up.
where a lube can kill you is when the temperature exceeds the lubes capability to hold onto it's oils.
I know I have told how the E-yellow series of lubes was minute of ground squirrel all one summer and all winter.
but the next spring in Nevada when temps went about 10-f higher than it had been tested in the groups suddenly went from the 1" zone to the 1.75" zone.
same nice round groups, same POI, just further apart, and a wet muzzle.
E-yellow is basically a lithi-bee lube but the stearates had been bumped from the normal 4-5% to over 7%.
so just tightening the grease matrix wasn't the answer, in that case more wax would have helped, but there is no way to add it to already loaded rounds.
where a lube can kill you is when the temperature exceeds the lubes capability to hold onto it's oils.
I know I have told how the E-yellow series of lubes was minute of ground squirrel all one summer and all winter.
but the next spring in Nevada when temps went about 10-f higher than it had been tested in the groups suddenly went from the 1" zone to the 1.75" zone.
same nice round groups, same POI, just further apart, and a wet muzzle.
E-yellow is basically a lithi-bee lube but the stearates had been bumped from the normal 4-5% to over 7%.
so just tightening the grease matrix wasn't the answer, in that case more wax would have helped, but there is no way to add it to already loaded rounds.
Ian
Notorious member
That's a perfect example and explanation, Fiver. The exact same thing happens with the old three-part NRA formula. At 90F it's great to low 2k fps in a .30-caliber, then it falls to pieces just a couple of degrees warmer or if the barrel starts to get really hot from shooting long strings with hot ball powder too quickly. Most of the Lithi-Bee type lubes suffer from this ailment. Sodium soap lubes like Felix lube and 666+1 with the 1 being Ivory soap hold together beautifully up to at least 110 and about 500 fps faster in the same gun. Felix lube flat will not heat fade, even after a 30-round mag dump at 100+F. SL-68 hangs in there too, but doesn't quite group as well as Felix lube to begin with (too sticky). Felix lube has cold problems and starts to throw lube off in chunks all the way to the target if it isn't pushed with a lot of pressure, so I always thin it some with a small dose of Vaseline. I'm pretty sure that JonB fixed most of the SL-68 series' problems by blending in some lower melt point microwaxes and a good portion of beeswax.
The thing I like most about the Na stearate/microwax/paraffin oil lubes is that they can be made very soft without being too slippery and thus fulfill one of my top priorities in a lube: Doesn't matter how many grooves you lube, how big the groove(s) is/are, how big or small the bore is, what the pressure is, what the bore finish is like, or what the velocity is...it does the same job regardless and gets gone at the muzzle without even leaving much of a star. Much of my testing was done with the purpose of identifying the cause of that little issue and discovering its fix.
The thing I like most about the Na stearate/microwax/paraffin oil lubes is that they can be made very soft without being too slippery and thus fulfill one of my top priorities in a lube: Doesn't matter how many grooves you lube, how big the groove(s) is/are, how big or small the bore is, what the pressure is, what the bore finish is like, or what the velocity is...it does the same job regardless and gets gone at the muzzle without even leaving much of a star. Much of my testing was done with the purpose of identifying the cause of that little issue and discovering its fix.
TL automatically uses more lube due to surface area. Consider the groove as a.reserve for 'used' lube. If we state that 30% of powder energy is used to expand the bore (Chris) theory states bore dia. chatters with the reflected waves, lube gets hammered between boolit and bore.
Eutectic
Active Member
Intheshop posed this question a while back without any bites. Barrel length is interesting
I have been working with the 'mystery' bullet that Brad guessed like a champ! LOTS of good design in that bullet! Lachmiller had someone smarter than the average duck! Look at the lube groove..... Holds a lot less than the competition (like 311359 for example!)
My 14 " .30-30 Contender..... Maybe that little spitzer would make a good grouse bullet?? I might get away with 1500fps without meat damage??? So I sized some Lachmiller 311115 GC to kiss and hug my short (.100") freebore. Some American Select told me it would shoot. 8grs of Alliant 410 was shooting 3/4" at 70 yards.... A little dirty though... Shot 7grs of Alliant Steel this morning.... It's the winner! So I'm working on my rest now to see just how good. All these powders are from the same family and general components.... So I only foul with one shot with just a powder change like this as that has worked for me. The bore has maybe 40 shots down it all with the same lube my 4Q + 3.2.... Certain barrel crowns show very long almost 'needle pointed' stars.... In the sun the Contender showed this off. I tried to take a picture and just enforced my need for a good macro lensed camera! I wanted to show the cleanliness of lands and grooves at the muzzle with ester and couldn't. I consider this lube star heavy..... But I also consider it fine for 14"! And the fact it has displayed no (NONE) too wet habits... This same load in a 24" rifle barrel would show less. This is just soot that will wipe off with the finger without oil. Sorry for the lousy photo!
Pete
Ian
Notorious member
Yep, I like it Pete. I could say a lot of stuff about pressure drop in the barrel, muzzle pressure, barrel length, alloy differences, etc. relating to barrel length and lube star appearance, but if you've ever read anything Lamar wrote on the subject of "relax point" the topic is covered.
Eutectic
Active Member
4Q or "Four Quarters" has become my 'simple lube' of choice. It has a track record of being my best 'cold start' lube over many loads in many guns. A positive statement is always best when many different elements are in the testing. It can't take Ian's 'blast furnace' environment; but will tolerate the mountains. I never let my loaded ammo get over 100*F even hunting Prairie Dogs in July!. I haven't tested it cold. I've shot it at minus -5*F fine, but not cold.... This winter gave many mornings at temps in the minus 30's below zero! But my wife was in the hospital very ill and she was my concern. I will speculate it will pass double digits on the minus side fine.... Ester likes bitter cold as much as this ol' man!
I may go to one of my sodium soap (Ivory) lubes for a hot high baller load.... But I've shoot 4Q 3.2 at 2900fps in the Hornet??
Full power .30-30 hunting loads show more Sb wash that "Ivory" formulas. Since I mentioned this lube back around my first post I have probably 'tweaked' the formula a dozen times! I had a hair going that an ester blend was a good thing... And it is good... But best? I found flaws, little.... but there. These were my 4Q "Bronze" series because A/C ester and Motul ester mixed turns the lube a pretty bronze color! But no prize.... Green is the color winner! (if that matters)
Let's talk Assembly Goo. I know Ian has it right down with Alox!
I have replaced the 2% Goo with Vaseline..... Purge fliers started showing up just enough to warn you. So I lowered ol' Ester down to 0.5%. Still there! Now I'm not a fan of Assembly Goo in the big picture BUT..... it seems somehow to get along with Ester and Vaseline and stabilize the mix for purging less?? 3.2% A/C ester in my formula is a high amount in general tests... But I'm getting away with it and Goo is the only thing different.8% Assembly Goo was in my first test and my first tweak was lowering the % for what it's worth.
Here's the formula you can make in a double boiler..... All %'s are by weight.
27.3% Beeswax
23.5% Paraffin
23.5% Micro Wax 180*F melt point
20.5% Vaseline
2% ... Assembly Goo
3.2% A/C ester oil Iso 100
Pete
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Easy to make, I like that. I even have all of that on hand!
Metric system makes it easy too, just change the percent to grams and weigh away. My wife will make me weigh away then cook way away.
I can get some basic heat data this summer, we are close temp wise to Ian right now. Sure wish he would close the door to his blast furnace. If he keeps this up I'm keeping the door to the freezer open all winter.
Metric system makes it easy too, just change the percent to grams and weigh away. My wife will make me weigh away then cook way away.
I can get some basic heat data this summer, we are close temp wise to Ian right now. Sure wish he would close the door to his blast furnace. If he keeps this up I'm keeping the door to the freezer open all winter.
Eutectic
Active Member
Another advantage of 4Q 3.2 Brad is it doesn't smell! I can smell a little hot beeswax, maybe the paraffin a little... Smells good hot to me.
But I cook in the garage as I'm set up to.... 450* temps or lithium I do outside....Pete