Can I paper patch this Rifle to save it?

[JWFilips]

Hi Guys:
A number of years ago I was gifted a Mauser 98 in a 1950 sporterized wood stock. My co-workers father had pasted and he asked me if I wanted his rifle. I said I would gladly pay for it but he told me if I would use it it would make the family happy. So It arrived in my possession...Very nice rifle . At the time I didn't know anything about German WWII Mausers So I did a lot of research and found out that this one was made by J.P. Sauer Und Son in 1939. It was a contract authorized by Hitler to produce 6000 fine Mauser 98 rifles for his elite troops. Not being a fan of the Third Reich I would have had little interest if I saw this at a gun show but now it was in my hands. I was also given 20 rounds of factory 8mm ammo. Well I decided to clean the bore ...after a week of work ( no doubt taking copper out of the bore that was probably shot at our GI's ) I got the bore to a dull gray look. I took it to the range to try it out with my 20 rounds of ammo. At 50 yards and with it's 4x weaver scope the best I could get was 4" groups. Well ya al know! I wanted to shoot cast bullets in it & posted my delima over the street at Cast Boolits...Well a very fine gentleman Larry Miller ( Largom) PM'd me and said he would help me fire lap the bore; So two years ago to the date using his direction and some cast bullet he sent me I started fire lapping the barrel. The bore was so bad we decided to start with 150 grit! I had a full line of industrial Diamond grits at my disposal after Photographing a Polishing compound Company's Facility for a brochure! (No valve grinding compounds here)
Well 20 rounds of 150 and 30 rounds of 220 and things were not much better ( dark bore)
Larry had me go back 20 more of 150 & 50 of 220 add'l ( by the way these were on soft cast karabiner slugs rolled between flat iron plates coated with the grit and a beeswax based lube shot with 3 gr BE)
Ok now I'm seeing metal so next I went to 40 rounds 320, 40 rounds 400 and 40 rounds 600 grit (BTW I had to run a cleaning patch up the bore after every shot!) So Now I'm ready to try...But Larry says you got to do a pound cast (?) Pound what cast??? Of course he directs me to tim's pound cast sticky over there. Well nothing like beating a rod into a classic weapon!!! Well It took me 3 attempts but finally it showed I had a .332 throat into my now oversized 8mm bore. I bought a Lee 329-205 mould ...beagled it & i was casting a .333 bullet I honed out a Lee sizer die to .332" but amazingly still the Hornady Annealed gas checks fit easily on the base. I was golden. Shot a bunch of these with the now improved 12 x scope & I got at best 1 1/2" groups at 50 yards!

So Folks Can I do better then this if I jump into the world of "Paper patching"?
But before you say yes.... you must realize the most paper patching I have done was my high school homework after "the dog ate it" & I never had a dog! So that should tell you where you are headed!

 

[Ian]

Only way to find out is to try. If you have the rough spots out of it, the crown is decent, there isn't a reverse-taper at the muzzle end, and it isn't leading anywhere, paper jackets will probably work very well. The throat is probably worn out enough now that paper jackets will be easier to fit. BTW, there's a pound cast thread right here in the tips/tricks section. I've only firelapped two rifles and two revolvers so I'm no expert on it, but I used the method BABore explained to me and it works very, very well. Carborundum grit is very brittle and breaks down into finer grits under pressure, so firelapping with it will cut more at the chamber end and polish more at the muzzle end, creating a taper. When you see shiny metal advance to within a half inch of the muzzle, stop firelapping and hand lap with a super-tight patch coated in abrasive. (strip of cloth wrapped around a jag or worn brush). See if Larry is willing to do a short write-up and maybe join here and post it? I can do the same thing but my experience level makes me just qualified enough to be dangerous and far from an expert qualified to dispense detailed instructions on the subject.

ETA: I just posted my PP article from a few years back here in the rifle section. It's all the stuff I learned from Pdawg Shooter, CJR, and Paul Matthews.

 

[JWFilips]

Ian,
I think Larry has joined here last fall Haven't heard from him in awhile!
One thing I forgot to mention was the last half of the rounds for each grit did not have the grit on them. For these I ran a grease patch with that particular grit in it down from the muzzle but stopped before I hit the throat, then a plan cast bullet was fired. I did this too not over work the throat area. I remember Larry sent me both Lee Karabiners and Lee Max Cast soft about BHN 9 and I didn't gas check them. That winter was very cold here and sometimes I only took one grit size session to the range at a time ( my range is only about 10 minutes away) It took a fair amount of time each trip to shoot and clean between each shot ( & a lot of patches & solvent) I used to go to the 200 yd range because that is most time deserted ( it got to be too big of a chore trying to explain myself to the other shooters!) Most times we had a good snow pack on the ground and I would hold about 6 feet or more high and try to hit the 200 yd backer boards. Actually found a few of my slugs in the snow.
Yes after all firelaping was done I did hand lapped & polished the bore and throat working up to 1200 grit by the tight patch method. After all that was complete I recut the crown.
Put a lot of work into that rifle for it to be sitting in the gun case.
Jim

 

[RBHarter]

After some time spent with a huge bbl not unlike yours , 7.62 x 39 at 305x316 with a leade and fired case excepting a 323 with a 318 nose , I think that a Lyman 338 mould might be a good start here (because of late Lyman has been undersize) checked and sized 334 might be just be a ticket .

With the 305x3165 with such a huge neck I patched a 310 to 318 ,(I have a 317 sizer that allows the ironed on paper to come out 318) unironed they dry wrap and require a friction but not tight fit in flared necks. With a 200gr Spitzeresk and 25 gr of 4350 I get 3x5s from that sloped out sks at about 1800 fps dropping back to 22.5 for magazine length velocities drop to 1550 fps .

 

[Maven]

Jim, I once had an Ideal 32-40 (I think) mould, which cast small enough to paper patch up to fit my 8 x 57mm Mau's. .324" bore (Shaw rebarreled). Although I had no other use for that mould, I was determined to try it in my Mauser. It wasn't difficult to do, and am happy to say that it grouped well enough @ 50 yd. to try to replicate it. In short, if a CB, which was wholly inappropriate for my bore shot accurately enough, what have you got to lose by paper patching in your gun?

 

[quicksylver]

Hey JW ..I know this is not PP and would be a little more expensive (sort of), but I bet Mr. Taylor could line that barrel for you.
With the pressures you are using for cast bullets it would be just fine, might even be good for regular ball ammo?

 

[JWFilips]

I guess I'm not familiar with "Mr Taylor" ?

Is lining cheaper than rebarreling?

 

[Ian]

John Taylor. First class smith, but sure relining a barrel chambered for a bottlenecked cartridge is advisable.

 

[JWFilips]

Well I took the old girl to the range today because the weather is as best as it gets for winter Sunny in the 30's and no wind at all. I shot a load that was the most promising the last time I shot it....turns out
The best group I ever shot in it was today's; I put 10 shots into just under 2 inches @50 yards with a 10 x scope
The load was my beagled Lee 329-205 with gas checks Sized in a honed out Lee pass thru die @.332" Ben's Red and BLL over 30 grains H4895 and a 1 grain tuft of dacron I set the bullets out far & let the rifle size the COL when I close the bolt. Seems like it is the only thing this rifle will shoot. Loaded the same bullet in front to 16 gr 2400 and not good!
Here is a set of targets The one on the left is this mornings The one on the right was the best the rifle would do before fire lapping As you can see I think I had confidence because I went to a 50 percent smaller target today back then that first group was over 4" @ 50 yards Keep in mind that back then it was the best target I had shot with it. So I can say fire lapping did work but I needed a fatter bullet so I beagled
that lee mould to .332" The thing that is most interesting is I have to shoot slow powders like 4895 instead of Unique or 2400 like I do in my other mauser to get accuracy. That is why the quest to shoot a PP bullet to see If I can get it to shoot better & with less and slower powder. Sorry to say at my age 30 grains of H4895 behind a 210 grain bullet hurts too much when shooting paper for fun Would rather be shooting light loads of Red Dot or Unique for fun
Anyway I know you guys like photos so here are some from this morning You will see the old JPSauer girl still sports her Color case Hardened receiver...JP & Son was the only house that made them that way for the big "H" man Also sporting all it's German eagles Sure would love to keep her as she was made wish I had the original Stock: Jim

 

[freebullet]

Nice improvement!

 

[Ben]

Jim,

What a beautiful rifle.
That checkering is VERY NICE also.

Doesn't shoot bad at all.


Ben

 

[JWFilips]

That's the way I received the rifle Just touched up the bad spots and just played on more hand rubbed oil Those guys in the 50's sure did know how to sporterize their recent enemy's larder...In fact I have found out my uncle who payed an active part in WWII ended up a stocker who restocked many German mausers in this similar style...however his forte was Blonde stocks ( I like red heads both modern and Old school 18th C) Glad this one has a healthy dose go red in her!

 

[Ben]

A fine rifle ! !

 

[Uber7mm]

You have a classic war trophy rifle. I think that 10-12 grains of Unique or 13 grains of Red Dot might be the ticket. From my experience, smokeless PP tend to be near jacketed loads, so PPs may not be shoulder compatible. Great history in your rifle. Keep us posted on your progress.

 

[quicksylver]

JW Nice job bringing the old girl back to life.
If you want to get a stock to look like that this is what you use.
It is a bit pricy but boy it works.
It says dark walnut but it is red, Military red, it will reproduce the red stain used on early US military rifles and Winchesters.
It is an alcohol based stain ( the best there is IMO).
I have been able to match miss matched pieces on my 03's
Check it out on line, it has been used extensively in Winchester restorations.
Application and finishing with boiled linseed oil vary according to desired results.
I let it dry for several days then use it for a couple of weeks and then wax with Minwax DARK paste wax,
instant antique 1917, 1903 stock!
I wax the entire gun, it fills in all the voids and leaves you with beautiful stain resistant and water proof finish.
Oil does not touch it.
It can be mixed with various other stains (Ritz)
It blends beautifully, no blotches.
Check it out on line very interesting.

 

[JWFilips]

Quicksylver Thanks for the tip on that stain I'm always looking for a good Red Walnut Color in a spirit base for my 18th Century restorations
I have a few expensive fine ones already but be sure I will be adding this one to my shelf
Jim

 

[300BLK]

Send it out to JES and have it rebored and rechambered to 9x57? Last time I checked it was $225 shipped for 3 groove and $250 for 4 or 5 groove. With a 9x57 you could use pistol bullets and retain the original barrel.

 

[JWFilips]

Send it out to JES and have it rebored and rechambered to 9x57? Last time I checked it was $225 shipped for 3 groove and $250 for 4 or 5 groove. With a 9x57 you could use pistol bullets and retain the original barrel.

I seriously did consider that for some time but in JES information area on the website he says that sometimes old military barrels don't cut well & then the barrel can be ruined.
I'm not sure if I should take the chance

 

[quicksylver]

JW... for future reference check out John Taylor at Taylor Machine.
He is the go to person for barrel relining.
Especially Winchester and Marlins and single shot.
He is a member at several other gun forums.
Check out the groups shot after relining,amazing.
Paco lever guns, Marlin owners etc.

 

[300BLK]

Relining really isn't an option in the case of 8x57mm in the original barrel. There are or were new surplus barrels to fit large ring Mausers for not a lot of $, but likely short chambered and will need to be fitted.

If it were me, I WOULD confidently send it to JES for rebore. Due the age and previous firing, it should be stress free as explained to me by someone who rebored for me 25 years back. I'm sure you could relay preference as to throat diameter and length expect it to be close.