Case swage die

[Brad]

JW asked me a while back to make him a die to swage 243 brass down for his Arisaka rifle. He found it wasn’t making the head quite small enough so he asked me to make a new, tighter die.
Knowing that brass would spring back more than lead I decided that .457 was a good start point to get a .4595 case head.

Case at start.

After old die.


After new die.

 

[Brad]

Here is a bullet just to show how much spring back there is.

 

[Ian]

Are you making those from scratch or using KeithB's die blanks?

I flat ruined a Lee .457" push-through die making .35 Remington brass from .308 Win. About 20 and the die was more like .461". That's a lot of pressure on the thin walls of a 7/8" threaded rod, not sure what Lee's material is or how consistent it is. If I were to need to do that again I'd probably make a die to fit the 1.5" threads in my RCBS Ammomaster.

 

[Brad]

This is with Keith’s blanks.
I too wondered about the long term durability of the die. There isn’t a lot of meat left after making that large of a hole. A larger die, like for the RCBS presses without the threaded inset, would certainly help.

 

[RBHarter]

There was a guy that made a couple of the dies that Grumpa used for 308 to 35 Rem etc . From memory after a brief discussion about 35 to 32 Rem and a 40 S&W bulge buster , he used I think O-1 tool that was then HT and phosphate/Melonite/black chrome or otherwise hard faced black . Of course that was for a guy making runs of 25,000 at a time for cash flow not Joe making 500 or less for life .

At first glance it seemed like the tool steel and heat treatment should have been enough without the hard face added but on reflection the hard face didn't do anything for flex and the steel lacked the desired abrasion resistance for 200,000 over the tool life . I don't remember all the details as it seems to be lumped in with the 03/95/98/91 Carcano action stuff in my mind so grain of salt if it seems wrong at some point .

 

[JWFilips]

Brad.....I'm honored!

I use a good Bit of anhydrous lanolin on the brass and never run it through all at one but advance it 6 to 8 times by turning down the die in my RCBS rock chucker 2 .... doing it this was is rather effortless!

Also ( don't anyone panic) but I super anneal the donor Brass ! yes I run the colors 2/3 of the way down! Not worried about head rupture on firing because they are only low powered loads and the swaging work hardens the brass some what

 

[KeithB]

I would be willing to make a small run of Lee type die blanks out of O1 or A2 tool steel if anybody wanted them. Neither is that difficult to harden. My blanks use 1144 steel, it can be hardened but not to the same extent as O1 or A2. Also, it's not just the hardness, these two tool steels form "beneficial carbides" internally. The various metallic elements form bonds to the free carbon to make hard, wear resistant particles inside the steel matrix. As the steel wears from use the carbides are exposed. I believe a 7/8-14 die is large enough for a case up to about 0.500" OD unless you're trying to size it down too much.

If someone wants to give this a try contact me.

 

[Brad]

PM sent

 

[fiver]

Jim try some castor oil mixed in with that lanolin. [1 part to 2 parts lanolin]
it thins out better, and the slickery goes up about 50%

 

[Ian]

Yup. Another trick is add about 10% beeswax and 5% neatsfoot oil to your 2:1 and very gently heat it until it is barely warm enough for the beewax to melt in (lanolin scorches at about 160⁰ and beeswax melts at about 145⁰ so it takes a while). Beeswax and Lanolin both have unbelievable film strength and have been used as deep-drawing lubricants since forever. The only thing better is chlorinated paraffin but that stuff causes cancer from ten feet away.

 

[fiver]

I don't use the bees-wax but I do use the neets foot.
a very small amount of lube will coat a grundle of cases,. [like,, really? that much lube coated all of these cases?]
I mush everything around in a baggie and will even add a bit of rubbing alcohol to the bag to thin it down even more for stuff like normal case re-sizing.

 

[Ian]

I like the neatsfoot for thinning the sticky case lube instead of the alcohol because alcohol just evaporates out of my plastic flip-spout containers. I still use Alberto VO5 hair pomade and lanolin for the case lube pads.

 

[Cherokee]

Neatsfoot oil was my case sizing lube for many years.

 

[fiver]

yeah that's why I throw it in separate, usually a capful to the baggie then dump everything out and let the alcohol evaporate.
I also can use whatever I got and don't have to worry about it being 99% or whatever.

 

[JWFilips]

OK I got this beautiful 3 die Swage set to convert .243 Win to the true 6.5 Japanese Service cartridge ( not the SAMI 6.5 Arisaka) Yes the Japanese Military had different specs for the Type 38 ( I think I posted the difference on my Arisaka thread!)
After passing the brass through the 3rd Swage die it gives me a very good facsimile of the service brass...however The FL size die does alter it to some of the SAMI specs! But the part is it allows me to have the longer neck of the Military case which should be 2.00" long In my well worn rifle the as is swaged and sized case is about 2.085" which runs easily though the action...so I do not have to trim!
Anyway, Brad out did himself on this daunting project and he hit a home run! Way beyond my dreams!
I'm going to write up a card to keep in the box set! It will name the master craftsman who created these and the date! Hope that it will follow these swage dies after I'm gone.
Brad has aways has good things to say about my firelocks ...Well he is starting to be a real master of making fine tools! The things I cherish!
Thank You Brad!

Pic below shows 5 swaged and FL sized 6.5 Jap cases along with the parent .243 win on the left

 

[JWFilips]

OK time to pick fiver and Ian's mind I have always used lanolin as a HD lube ...but fiver you mentioned castor oil...and Ian you mentioned Beeswax in addition. I do not have castor oil ( not even sure where to get it) but I do have beeswax so I made up a 2 part lanolin to 1 part bees wax to do these!
( I did a 1 to 1 at first but it was too hard )
what are some good porportions for a swage lube

 

[Brad]

Castor oil can be found at most drug stores or pharmacies.

 

[358156 hp]

It's often found in the"laxative" aisle.

 

[fiver]

like right next to the mineral oil.
if your unsure about going out right now and want to try something else, try a small 50-50 batch of lanolin and Vaseline.
if I am heavy duty case drawing I apply the lube to each case by hand as I set it in the shell holder or on the push through stem.
that way I can control how much and where it goes.
I have even wiped it on the case then wiped it off the neck area with a rag to avoid any dents.

 

[Ian]

+1 on that, Fiver.

Lanolin with 10% beeswax thinned to taste with neatsfood oil is also tough to beat. Castor oil has excellent film strength but I mainly used it as a thinner for the lanolin until finding that neatsfoot is a much better thinner.