cast a little to big

[ChestnutLouie]

I have read that if you cast bullets with higher amounts of Linotype they will be bigger in size and lower in weight. Well I cast some Lee 158 grain tumble lube swc bullets using 4.5 lbs of Linotype and .9 lbs of 12BHN alloy. I test hardness with the Lee hardness tester kit. It turns out that the Linotype cast are .361" vs the 12BHN at .359".
159.4 grains for the 12BHN and 153 grains for the Linotype.

Can I run them thru my sizer? Should I put a tiny bit of 45 45 10 lube 1st? I tried sizing just a bare powder coat and the powder coat did not come off but it was squished.

Thanks
Francis

 

[fiver]

you can size them, I'd definitely put some lube on them first.

you plan on running these to about 3,000 fps?

 

[ChestnutLouie]

"you plan on running these to about 3,000 fps?"

No but I have read that if you want to send them 1600fps that they need to fit and be hard. I suppose that the best way to push cast bullets is to buy molds that cast bullets that allow the use of copper gas checks. I do not have that right now.

I have loader Hornaday 158grain xtp to 1850fps over 17grains of LilGun (per the Lee 2nd book) can hard lead do this with out gas checks?
Can the load for a jacketed bullet be used for hard cast?

Thanks
Francis

 

[Brad]

I have fired plain based bullets from my 92 Win in 357 mag with a case full of 4227 With no leading and good accuracy. Velocities run into the 1700 FPS range.
This was with air cooled range scrap running in the 12 BHN range.

The old “gotta be hard” mantra has been disproven many times.

You can size them but like fiver said, a little lube added first would help. I wouldn’t want to run them thru my Star without lubing some first. A Lee push thru will size them easily. Be aware that as they sit they are getting a little harder every day.

As for jacketed data being used for cast, I would say “kinda”. Need to pay close attention to the amount of bullet seated in the case as it has a very significant impact on pressure.

 

[popper]

I'd probably use oneshot or case lube, even water and size right away before they get harder. Yes, hard PC PB bullets can be run fast and will be relatively accurate if the base is good and fit is right. Lino is way hard for 357. I would try to size close to bore with the hard alloy. Try a few to see how you like them, then if OK, reduce hardness with some pure. I did push 30 cal >36 BHN past 2k fps with PB PC accurately - just for fun and giggles, not ever really needed.

 

[Bret4207]

The first thing I personally would ask and recommend you do is forget pretty much everything related to the MYTH that you can't possibly shoot a bullet over 6 or 700 fps without it being HARDCAST! This is pet peeve of mine, so don't take it personally. The whole freakin' HARDCAST crap myth was perpetuated at time when we didn't understand how to fit a cast bullet in a gun by people who were selling commercially cast bullets. Just forget it for now. Harder alloys have their place but it's usually way up past anything you'll be doing in a 357 mag. Yes, Gas Checked bullets make things exponentially easier, but there is no reason you can't shoot a plain based (PB) bullet that fits right at or near full bore 357 mag pressures. It is going to depend on the gun and load more than alloy or Bhn. "Fit" is a complex issue and while many of us tend to say "fatter is better" it has it's limits. You may need to do some more work before you find a happy place with your 357. I have not personally used Lee Tumble Lube designs but my understanding is they aren't really great at higher pressures. I may be dead wrong, but I'd research that HERE, not at a run of the mill gun/reloading site, and get some solid advice. I would definitely recommend you start lower, say in the 1200fps range, and work up.

Linotype is wicked hard for what you want to do. If the bullets are dropping .361 and you try to size to .359 you're going to wipe half the groove off. If you're powder coating on top of that, you must be up in the. .363 area. No wonder you are having problems sizing! You might want to talk to some of the powder coat gurus here. My understanding is PC negates a lot of the need for harder alloys right off the bat.

 

[ChestnutLouie]

"As for jacketed data being used for cast, I would say “kinda”. Need to pay close attention to the amount of bullet seated in the case as it has a very significant impact on pressure."

It seems to me that case volume after the bullet has been seated is the key factor in whether or not pressure will get to high. Is this correct?

thanks
Francis

 

[JWFilips]

No but I have read that if you want to send them 1600fps that they need to fit and be hard.

ChestnutLouie,
You got it half right : They have to fit! Like Brett said "hard" is a myth

 

[Brad]

Case volume after seating the bullet is a huge part of it. Deep seating a bullet in a case like the 9mm Luger can quickly lead to excessive pressures.

 

[ChestnutLouie]

I was planning to use 2400. Does any one have bullets cast from the Lyman #358665 mold? If yes then what is the distance between the crimp groove and the base of the bullet? FYI I will have .363" of the Lee TL bullet inside the case

Thanks
Francis

 

[462]

That maximum 2400 load and Lee's 358-158 RNFN really agrees with my Blackhawk, Vaquero and 24" Rossi/EMF 92.

Bullets are cast of and alloy of 2:1 clip-on:stick-on. Don't know its hardness and don't care to know, but I do know that it works for me.

 

[CZ93X62]

I routinely run BHn 14-15 castings at 35K PSI in the 9mm--125 grain bullets at 1225-1250 FPS. I haven't leaded a barrel in years--bullets are sized at .357", which is a few tenths larger than my widest 9mm throat. 357 pressures run in the same ballpark. The alloy is half Linotype and half unalloyed lead.

 

[L Ross]

Case volume after seating the bullet is a huge part of it. Deep seating a bullet in a case like the 9mm Luger can quickly lead to excessive pressures.

Yeah, like a self ejecting magazine, grips popping off, and officers transitioning from revolver to semi-auto standing there shaking their hand like hitting a Nolan Ryan fast ball with a cracked bat. Our agency was buying commercial remanufactured 9m/m ammo and was experiencing this phenomenon about once in every 250 rounds. The range master knew I reloaded and asked me what I thought was happening. We went in the ammo room and started pushing the bullets of the remanned ammo against the edge of a bench and sure enough, every so often the bullet would push in and be deep seated. Mixed, range pickup brass was part of the problem, also the bullets were jacketed 124 gr. .355". I'm pretty careful with how hot I run wadcutters in .38s and .357s. 3.5 gr. of Bullseye in the .38 and 4.5 in the .357 does all I want to do with a wadcutter. And those are not flush seated either.

 

[Bret4207]

Francis, not sure you're aware the Bhn is going to change (harder) over time and they will probably increase a bit in diameter too. I'll also advise you that lead alloy bullets USUALLY create lower pressure than anything jacketed.

13.5 2400 with a 158 gr cast bullet in a 357 case was a pretty standard mag load back in the day. Some authorities went a couple grs higher, so times and probably 2400 have changed a bit. I won't mention the loads we used in 38 brass...

 

[Ian]

If you're going to powder coat them, FORGET HARD BULLETS. You need SOFT, like half stick-on half clip-on wheelweights, or 6:1 Linotype/pure.

 

[fiver]

if your cast bullet is plugging up the gas behind it, the pressure will actually be higher even though it has a lower friction level in the barrel.

I was gonna say you need neither a check nor a hard alloy in a pistol caliber lever rifle to easily hit 1600 fps.,
I've been over that in all of mine using 2400,,, H-110 or 4227 would probably be even easier on the bullet.
but it looks like everyone else already did.

 

[CZ93X62]

13.5 2400 with a 158 gr cast bullet in a 357 case was a pretty standard mag load back in the day. Some authorities went a couple grs higher, so times and probably 2400 have changed a bit. I won't mention the loads we used in 38 brass...

EXACTLY this load--using #358156 (gas-checked) in W-W cases with CCI 500 primers--duplicated my shop's old carry load (W-W 158 JHP Super-X). 1235-1250 FPS from my 686 x 4"/both loads.

 

[Bret4207]

if your cast bullet is plugging up the gas behind it, the pressure will actually be higher even though it has a lower friction level in the barrel.

Well, let me rephrase it then, Using identical loads the lead alloy bullet will usually "show" less pressure signs than a jacketed bullet. You know what I mean, how would you word it some it makes sense?

 

[JonB]

I was planning to use 2400. Does any one have bullets cast from the Lyman #358665 mold? If yes then what is the distance between the crimp groove and the base of the bullet? FYI I will have .363" of the Lee TL bullet inside the case

Thanks
Francis

If you want to dance near the max pressure, you should work up a load, instead of guesstimating case capacity.
I would seat the bullet to the best depth, for bullet crimp and/or the gun's chamber/throat.
Then start with a low starting load and work up, until you see the begining signs of high pressure.

 

[fiver]

well.. yeah.
Bret it's hard to explain all of the contradictories between the two and the little subtleties that make the difference.
you have less friction and lower engraving pressures with the lead bullet, both should lead to less pressure in the load.
they most certainly would if you were comparing copper to copper and they do here also.
you just lose on the other side where we take all that time to avoid gas cutting by sealing the barrel off tight.

I guess the best way to explain it is by comparing the old cardboard and fiber wad loads in a shot shell load to simply trying to replace them with a plastic wad.
nothing else changed [ejecta weight, hull etc.] but the higher efficiency of containing the pressure lead to about a 20% decrease in powder and gas volume to keep pressure the same.
or to put it in old rifle guy terms he has a faster barrel [more likely a slightly tighter bore]