Size to 310, noe 308 expander (Lee flare die). 4% Sb or #2 alloy het treated(drop from mould). Wait a week to load. Expand and flare case mouth. GC. Begin seat till lube grove is started into case. Using toothpick, a few drops of mazola oil into the groove, finish seating. 37gr H335 or H4895. Make dummy rnds to verify no jamming into lands. That will get you MOA @ 100. Works for my LR308 carbine. Runs 2400 fps. Get some Roto super hard pellets, add to alloy until you get accuracy you want. I use 31-168c mould which does MOA @ 200 when I add some Cu. runs 2700 from 24" rifle upper.
casting .308 bullets
- Thread starter tuckerjoy
- Start date
Ian
Notorious member
Yeah, my info dump backfired pretty badly, didn't it?
My point was to show you what can be done, some different ways it has been done, and give you the confidence that the results you seek are realistic. Not necessarily easy, but realistic. You can take this easy, one thing at a time, and work up to a load that is satisfactory to you. I gave you a list of bullet moulds that will work, and the implication that the bullet you have been using most likely will not...and why. Some of those moulds are easier to obtain than others, consider picking up the Lee mould in a two-cavity version with standard grease groove to get you started. We've indicated that the alloy you have will be fine, might need to water-quench but it will get the job done. We've also given you the types of powders you'll need to be looking at to do this, and some idea of the basic tooling. Standard FL sizing dies cause so many problems I would recommend you don't even try to use them but go straight to a full-length bushing neck die. You'll need an expander which you can buy off the shelf and for bullet sizing/lube dies you just need the right sizes to fit your equipment, then work it out the processes one step at a time.
You also have a whole board full of people standing behind you here willing to help.
My point was to show you what can be done, some different ways it has been done, and give you the confidence that the results you seek are realistic. Not necessarily easy, but realistic. You can take this easy, one thing at a time, and work up to a load that is satisfactory to you. I gave you a list of bullet moulds that will work, and the implication that the bullet you have been using most likely will not...and why. Some of those moulds are easier to obtain than others, consider picking up the Lee mould in a two-cavity version with standard grease groove to get you started. We've indicated that the alloy you have will be fine, might need to water-quench but it will get the job done. We've also given you the types of powders you'll need to be looking at to do this, and some idea of the basic tooling. Standard FL sizing dies cause so many problems I would recommend you don't even try to use them but go straight to a full-length bushing neck die. You'll need an expander which you can buy off the shelf and for bullet sizing/lube dies you just need the right sizes to fit your equipment, then work it out the processes one step at a time.
You also have a whole board full of people standing behind you here willing to help.
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Will
Well-Known Member
Pay a lot of attention to the molds that Ian listed. I will also add the MP 308 Hunter to that list.
Having a bullet that’s designed in such a way that it allows some self alignment and “flowability”. Yeah I know that’s not a word but that’s how I picture it in my head. The lead has to have somewhere to go when things get squeezed down. Bullets that allow this to happen in a uniform manner helps a lot.
Starting with a good bullet design will help get you on your way pretty quickly.
Having a bullet that’s designed in such a way that it allows some self alignment and “flowability”. Yeah I know that’s not a word but that’s how I picture it in my head. The lead has to have somewhere to go when things get squeezed down. Bullets that allow this to happen in a uniform manner helps a lot.
Starting with a good bullet design will help get you on your way pretty quickly.
waco
Springfield, Oregon
I have had great results with the RCBS .310" neck expanding die. I size bullets to .311" I use BAC or 2500+ lube. Hornady or Gator checks. I DO use a Forster Ultra Micrometer Seater Die. This keeps loaded rounds very concentric. I use slow for caliber powders to get a gentle "push" on the bullet.
I am running the NOE 30XCB bullet at 2600fps out of a 22" tube with real close to 2moa accuracy out to 500 yards so far. This is an out of the box Rem 700 in .308 with a 10x Leupold. The seater die is the only really "trick" gizmo I use. I am also a big fan of Starline brass. I'll spring for Lapua brass for my ELR gun but for the .308 the Starline stuff just plain works. I keep bullets sorted to within .3gr in weight and run a 90/6/4 alloy(Pb/Sb/Sn)
Fiver, Ian, and Brad are the guys that really helped me get to the results I just told you about. They know their stuff. It can be done without breaking the bank for sure. A bit of understanding on how the bullet leaves the case and travels down and out of the bore is a wealth of knowledge.
Good luck on your progress and please keep us updated.
P.S. FWIW
My go to 308 powders are H414, RX15, and H4831. I have had the best luck with these for velocities over 2200fps. Not sure if these are applicable in a gas gun. I'm sure someone else will chime in.
Walter.
I am running the NOE 30XCB bullet at 2600fps out of a 22" tube with real close to 2moa accuracy out to 500 yards so far. This is an out of the box Rem 700 in .308 with a 10x Leupold. The seater die is the only really "trick" gizmo I use. I am also a big fan of Starline brass. I'll spring for Lapua brass for my ELR gun but for the .308 the Starline stuff just plain works. I keep bullets sorted to within .3gr in weight and run a 90/6/4 alloy(Pb/Sb/Sn)
Fiver, Ian, and Brad are the guys that really helped me get to the results I just told you about. They know their stuff. It can be done without breaking the bank for sure. A bit of understanding on how the bullet leaves the case and travels down and out of the bore is a wealth of knowledge.
Good luck on your progress and please keep us updated.
P.S. FWIW
My go to 308 powders are H414, RX15, and H4831. I have had the best luck with these for velocities over 2200fps. Not sure if these are applicable in a gas gun. I'm sure someone else will chime in.
Walter.
fiver
Well-Known Member
your standard die puts the neck tension at about 306.
one I have is 305.
even with a harder alloy that's probably too much tension.
I have to run my cast over a 31 caliber ball expander I spun in a drill and polished down with some steel wool to 309.
with the spring back after going over the expander ball I get about 3085 or 1.5 thousandths tension.
the point here is we have 5 or 6 guys showing/telling you 5-6 ways we have all got there with a mish mash of alloys bullets and tools.
I don't own a spud or m-die or lee/lyman pokie thingy or have the means to make one, I mostly use RCBS dies.
the one thing we all have in common is bullet shape, actually two basic variations of two different themes, and the willingness to mess with our alloys etc..
I use 2 main bullets for higher speeds [in 308/30-06 type rounds]
the accurate 165-A it feeds and works in my M-14 as well as the bolt guns.
and the NOE XCB bullet I haven't tried it in a semi-auto yet.
they are pretty diametrically opposed in design and shape.
the bigger differences?
the alloy I use with them.
the 165 gets ww and soft alloy with a bit of tin added.
the XCB gets 4% tin and 6[ish] % antimony.
about the same final BHN actually.
the 165 pretty much gets the slow powders, gentle launches, and long acceleration curves.
the XCB gets jacketed powders straight from the book just reduced a bit.
they pretty much go the same speed and shoot the same groups they just get there a little differently.....
BUT,, yeah but... LOL, as usual.... they get the same case treatments.
thinking about shooting cast as a direct replacement for a jacketed bullet is the wrong thinking.
you have to look at it more like launching a wad of bubble gum.
once you learn how to do that, and start treating jacketed more like cast both of your loads will improve.
one I have is 305.
even with a harder alloy that's probably too much tension.
I have to run my cast over a 31 caliber ball expander I spun in a drill and polished down with some steel wool to 309.
with the spring back after going over the expander ball I get about 3085 or 1.5 thousandths tension.
the point here is we have 5 or 6 guys showing/telling you 5-6 ways we have all got there with a mish mash of alloys bullets and tools.
I don't own a spud or m-die or lee/lyman pokie thingy or have the means to make one, I mostly use RCBS dies.
the one thing we all have in common is bullet shape,
I use 2 main bullets for higher speeds [in 308/30-06 type rounds]
the accurate 165-A it feeds and works in my M-14 as well as the bolt guns.
and the NOE XCB bullet I haven't tried it in a semi-auto yet.
they are pretty diametrically opposed in design and shape.
the bigger differences?
the alloy I use with them.
the 165 gets ww and soft alloy with a bit of tin added.
the XCB gets 4% tin and 6[ish] % antimony.
about the same final BHN actually.
the 165 pretty much gets the slow powders, gentle launches, and long acceleration curves.
the XCB gets jacketed powders straight from the book just reduced a bit.
they pretty much go the same speed and shoot the same groups they just get there a little differently.....
BUT,, yeah but... LOL, as usual.... they get the same case treatments.
thinking about shooting cast as a direct replacement for a jacketed bullet is the wrong thinking.
you have to look at it more like launching a wad of bubble gum.
once you learn how to do that, and start treating jacketed more like cast both of your loads will improve.
Ian
Notorious member
The press makes little difference.
Your thinking to load cast like jacketed is getting you some pretty awful results right now and is why you are here asking for help.
We've been explaining why hot loads of 4198 pushing an ill-fitting Barlow bullet from a cartridge prepared with standard jacketed-bullet tools won't work for cast bullets in a semi-auto.
To make cast bullets group you have to have two things going: The bullet has to be introduced to the bore absolutely straight and on center, and you have to have consistency in everything that affects the bullet launch.
To get the bullet going straight you first have to have the case neck holding the bullet straight. Since cast bullets must be larger than jacketed to seal the bore and not lead it up from gas cutting, the neck tension needs to be adjusted for the larger bullets. Sizing for jax and then expanding for cast, or not expanding and cramming a .31whatever into a case neck prepared for .308" bullets is going to stretch the neck to the side of least resistance and be off-center to the bore. Not resizing the neck too small with jax dies in the first place is the best policy, hence the recommendations for collet or bushing neck dies. You will need an expander to bell the mouths slightly and true the resized necks for uniform tension. 1.5 to 2 thousandths is all the tension you want or need on a cast bullet. In order to know what size to make your bullets and what size tools you need to prep your brass for the aformentioned tension, you need to know your chamber neck and throat entrance dimensions, hence an accurate chamber cast of some kind (there are several ways to do this) is needed. If you're full-length resizing your brass every firing, the cases will be too small for the chamber and cannot support the bullet straight in line with the bore. Minimal sizing, minimal headspace, and reduction of all tolerances to the minimum is of paramount importance to accuracy with cast bullets in a semi-auto rifle.
The seating die you have may or may not work well for cast bullets and may seat the bullets slightly crooked. Rolling cartridges on a platen and looking for wobble is a good way to see if your bullets are seating straight or not. If not, a Forster seating die can help provided you didn't screw up the necks in the resizing and expanding process.
Certain bullet shapes work better than others for the velocity and pressure needed to function your rifle and make good groups. We explained which ones work for us and what to cast them from, and how you can determine the size you need to make them to fit your particular rifle's chamber.
We explained what powders to look at using and why.
This is a step-by-step thing where you figure out what tools to use to achieve the fit and function we have described, then you use the bullets and components recommended for a fast-track around a big part of the learning curve, and get back to shooting where you can make observations, ask questions, make some adjustments, and eventually get things dialed in.
We haven't even scratched the subjects of bullet lube, barrel vibrations, seating depth, primer brisance, neck hardness, neck turning, primer pocket uniforming, flash hole deburring, effects of different crimp styles, alloy tuning, weighing cases, weighing bullets, or even getting all the copper out of your barrel before shooting cast bullets through it. Most of that stuff is trivial and light years ahead of where you should be thinking right now.
What you should be thinking is "How am I going to get this squishy little blob of lead alloy stuffed in a case and blasted through my rifle with 40 thousand pounds of pressure in such a way that it exits the muzzle with a true and balanced form that will actually go where it's pointed at 170,000 rpm".
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RCBS rifle lube just alox & beewax. Sometimes the hard lubes goober off and unbalance the bullet on the way(spin rate is real high). Veggie oil lubes and just spins off evenly and is CHEAP and REAL slippery. 308 neck expander will give 002 neck tension which should be enough for a start - neck springback will be enough. I started with a single stage C press (champ IIRC) but it wouldn't size 308W MG fired brass so got a Lee O press. I startethe process I stated above on 30/30, got it working and applied it to the AR10. took a few range trips to sort out the reults but it works. Used the 31-165 with regular grooves then. Changed to PC and grooveless mould, still works great. But 4227 won't work! I have other powders but 4895 just does work. Gets you to a good starting point, you can tinker for better performance later.
just ordered the cerrosafe from midwayusa and will get that taken care of. That way I can give you guys some kind of measurements and some possible pics. then I hope you can give me the proper bullet mould that I can get, and then keep moving forward but I did check and none of my bullets is very straight in the case due to the possible neck being to tight?
That and . . .
10 and 15 thousands?
I didn't go back and read this entire thread but . . . What expander are you using? And what sizer die? My first thought is way too tight brass.
Gary
SE Kansas
Walter; do you get much "Lead shaving" when you use a .310 expander and a .311 cast bullet?
waco
Springfield, Oregon
None that I have ever noticed.