Casting with some old molds that are new to me

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
I got a .44 RN mold a couple of years ago, from the pix on eBay it looked like it might be a H&G, but
couldn't tell, but cavities looked good, price was reasonable so I got it. I recently posted here asking
about what it was, since when it came it was not a H&G. Found out it was a Modern Bond. It needed
a new screw, which was an oddball, a 10-24 with a 7/8" long snout at 0.125". So, I got one from the hardware
store and cut the snout down on the lathe.

Once I made the new screw for the mold, the stop screw side, and it fits SAECO mold handles like a glove.
I wonder, is there some connection with SAECO. like did they buy out M-B's tooling or anything, might
explain the perfect fit.

In any case - decided to make up some bullets that I have never tried before, but have read many
reports that they are accurate ones. Lots of sources over the years have reported that 240 RN lead
bullets shoot very well in .44 Spl, so, I have a 1920s vintage S&W .44 Spl, so time to see if it likes this
M-B RN design. It shoots well with Elmer's 250 SWC, too.

And, I have read many times that the 454190 shoots well in .45 Colt, but never tried it. I got a double
cavity mold last year, Lyman, used in good shape, so decided to cast up some RN or RNFP bullets of
designs which I had never used before.

The M-B did well, but the sprue plate design is a nuisance, wanting to flip back over the base of one or
the other bullets, keeping it from dropping when set to my preferred, "free and loose" setup. So, I tensioned
it so it would stay where it was put, which worked fine. The bullets were pretty sticky in the mold and
never really got much better - and after a while, I noticed why. The big, Keith type lube groove has absolutely
square sides. Hard for the bullet to get out. And, I discovered on inspection after casting a bit over 100 of
them.....it can crack the base if you dump them out too early. :( The mold cast well, and filled out nicely,
came up to temp quickly with the help of a propane torch, generally a good old mold, but that straight sided
lube groove does nobody any favors, IMO. The bullets are perfectly round and .431 diam, about perfect,
except for the little hitch with the lube groove design.

I then fired up the old Lyman 454190 and that old gal was just waiting to show off. Bullets just fall out as soon as the mold
is opened, and I had put it on the hot plate and it was almost ready to go, maybe four pairs of bad bullets before
they started raining out in perfect shape. Clearly perfectly cut on center and they look good. They mike out at .456 or
so two places, but there is one direction that drops down to .452, so not super round, slightly disappointing. We'll see
how the shoot. I wonder if a bit of lapping would round them out a touch? Anyone have experience trying that?

Take a look at that left bullet. THAT is why you want a 10 degree or so angle on the "straight" sides of
a flat bottomed lube groove.

8526

So, now will lube and size and load some up. All I will need is some decent weather to shoot them.

That RN looks a lot like a Keith with a RN grafted on.

Bill
 
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RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
I wonder, is there some connection with SAECO. like did they buy out M-B's tooling or anything, might
explain the perfect fit.
Carl Cramer's moulds from the 1930's with two or three cavities work well with M-B's (most of the time). When Cramer retired about 1950 he sold the company to SAECO in California, which was across town from Cramer. All of their original designs were Cramer cherries until the owner and family were killed (auto accident pre-seatbelts, IIRC) and company sold to New York.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
The bullets are perfectly round and .431 diam, about perfect,
except for the little hitch with the lube groove design.
That was the way Keith designed his bullets, so that is how Cramer, Modern-Bond and everyone else until WWII made them. They could get away with it because they didn't use much or any antimony. Those high tin alloys shrink on solidus more than modern ones. So the modern technique low tin content promotes cracking of the tight spots and the hard release. It was a different casting world 90 years ago.

Hope you like history lessons. :) I like talking about old stuff!
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
OK, just a random luck thing, sounds like no real connection between M-B and SAECO.
Whatever....I was happy that I had handles that work perfectly, no fiddling and such needed.

I love learning of all kinds, esp about a favorite hobby. So maybe with 1-20 alloy it would
cast more to the .429 on the side of the mold.

Bill
 
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Rick

Moderator
Staff member
Carl Cramer's moulds from the 1930's with two or three cavities work well with M-B's (most of the time). When Cramer retired about 1950 he sold the company to SAECO in California, which was across town from Cramer. All of their original designs were Cramer cherries until the owner and family were killed (auto accident pre-seatbelts, IIRC) and company sold to New York.

The feller killed in the auto accident (forget his name off hand, I didn't know him) had a partner, John Adams. It was John that sold SAECO to Redding a few years later. I knew John fairly well at the time, he was the first President of IHMSA and founder of LASC. John died of cancer 3-4 years ago.
 

RicinYakima

High Steppes of Eastern Washington
Glad you remembered him, as I will write that down for a notation in my history of the SAECO company. Thanks!
 

Rick

Moderator
Staff member
John semi retired after selling SAECO, went to work as a chauffer for . . . . A porn company. :)
 

358156 hp

At large, whereabouts unknown.
I seem to recall Keith mentioning once that his original design was based on the Ideal 358311, with a SWC nose grafted on from one of Ideals 38-55 designs. I also get a bit of a chuckle over people on the "hard cast" bullet issue. I can find no mention of antimonial alloys in Keiths works until the 1950s. His idea of a "hard cast" alloy, was simply pure lead with tin added. I think he favored 1:16 for general work, and 1:20 for hollow points. I haven't read everything he had written, but I believe most of this information came from "Sixguns", and "Hell, I was There!". Since Elmer also never mentioned bullet lubes much, I've always believed he probably used the age old beeswax, mixed with either pump grease, or some form of animal tallow. Also just a guess as well. He never struck me as being too interested in bullet lube.
 

Pistolero

Well-Known Member
I read somewhere, I think, that Keith used "banana lube"---whatever that is/was.

Yeah, 1:16 is Elemer's 'hard cast'. NOT 18-22 BHN, for sure.

Bill
 

fiver

Well-Known Member
Elmer did write of using bear tallow from spring bears also sheep/deer tallow when necessary mixed with beeswax.


the earliest I found about the term hard cast was a reference in a magazine article i read mentioning antimony in an alloy around 1900+/- [1898 or1903/1905 from memory] it was the way it was referenced to denote a 3 part alloy versus a lead/tin mix.

Bill I have a couple of the older square groove molds.
I have to just give them time after pouring and run a bit of tin in the alloy then turn the block with the bullets in it 180 to the bench and whack the bolt to get them to drop.
one of my 41 molds actually likes to tear the top band if I get impatient.
if I do like 2-2.5 pours a minute and give the mold a little heat on the pot edge between pours and let things settle down before opening the mold it makes fine bullets.
 

Bret4207

At the casting bench in the sky. RIP Bret.
And in the small world line, my mom was friends with the family that owns Redding, which bought SAECO. SAECO also made commercial coffee makers and some other odd stuff.
 

Cherokee

Medina, Ohio
I find these little tidbits of history interesting. When I was growing up and getting into firearms in the 50's, all I had available were American Rifleman and various gun mags, and Dan Cotterman and Dick Bernzine. Lyman was the only molds I ever saw or used.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Banana lube was made by Ideal, referenced by Townsend Whelen in The American Rifle, 1918, p. 265.
 

Ian

Notorious member
Bill, you can lap that Lyman mould round quite easily, but I would study very closely the way in which it is elliptical. Often the blocks aren't closing fully because metal has been peened up into a crater rim around the alignment pin holes. A few draws with a fine file cures that. Another alignment issue is the blocks being shifted opposite directions either when cut in a sloppy double-acting vise or from use. This requires judicious peening and filing of the pins and sockets to shift the blocks back so the cavity faces align.

8546
 
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Pistolero

Well-Known Member
Ian - When I was measuring, I thought about your top right picture. I will be
looking close at the pins and the holes later today. May be able to clean them
up and/or reset pins and help things out. I noted that the narrowest was just adjacent
to the mold parting line, like shown in the drawing.

IME, Lyman molds have needed to extend the pins out a bit several times. This one
may be that way, too. Did not look closely, but will now.

fiver - I noticed the tear in one when casting, looked at the REALLY square lube grooves
and tried blowing on the bullets a couple breaths while they were hanging in half of the
mold, to firm them up a bit. That seems to have helped some. I tend to agree, can't
be expecting them to drop out too early, probably need to cast a touch slower, give them
time to really set up before getting them out to avoid damaging them.
This is my only mold with perfectly square lube groove edges, so learning what they need.

Bill
 
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